That's interesting. Thanks for the information Alan. Do you by any
chance know what it means to develop insight before calm, or do you
know of any sites that talk about it?...I've heard of the system where
one first develops calm (samatha) then insight (vipassana), and also
one where one develops insight alone. But I've never heard do insight
first then calm.

Thanks,
June

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Alan McClure" <alanmcclure3@...> wrote:
> Hello Chris,
>
> One might take the fourth section of the Yuganaddha Sutta from the
Anguttara
> Nikaya to be such an example:
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta...a/an04-170.html
> The previous link is to one translation of this sutta.
> There isn't concensus on this issue even within the monastic
community, so
> you are going to get varying positions depending on who you talk to.
>
> Here is the whole Pali text of the aforementioned sutta, my comments
will be
> below:
>
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Yuganaddhasutta.m:
>
> Eva.m me suta.m -- eka.m samaya.m aayasmaa aanando kosambiya.m viharati
> ghositaaraame. tatra kho aayasmaa aanando bhikkhuu aamantesi --
``aavuso
> bhikkhave''ti. ``aavuso''ti kho te bhikkhuu aayasmato aanandassa
> paccassosu.m. aayasmaa aanando etadavoca --
>
> ``yo hi koci, aavuso, bhikkhu vaa bhikkhunii vaa mama santike
> arahattappatti.m byaakaroti, sabbo so catuuhi maggehi, etesa.m vaa
> a~n~natarena.
>
> ``katamehi catuuhi? idha, aavuso, bhikkhu samathapubba"ngama.m
vipassana.m
> bhaaveti. tassa samathapubba"ngama.m vipassana.m bhaavayato maggo
> sa~njaayati. so ta.m magga.m aasevati bhaaveti bahuliikaroti. tassa
ta.m
> magga.m aasevato bhaavayato bahuliikaroto sa.myojanaani pahiiyanti,
anusayaa
> byantiihonti.
>
> ``puna capara.m, aavuso, bhikkhu vipassanaapubba"ngama.m samatha.m
bhaaveti.
> tassa vipassanaapubba"ngama.m samatha.m bhaavayato maggo
sa~njaayati. so
> ta.m magga.m aasevati bhaaveti bahuliikaroti . tassa ta.m magga.m
aasevato
> bhaavayato bahuliikaroto sa.myojanaani pahiiyanti, anusayaa
byantiihonti.
>
> ``puna capara.m, aavuso, bhikkhu samathavipassana.m yuganaddha.m
bhaaveti.
> tassa samathavipassana.m yuganaddha.m bhaavayato maggo sa~njaayati.
so ta.m
> magga.m aasevati bhaaveti bahuliikaroti. tassa ta.m magga.m aasevato
> bhaavayato bahuliikaroto sa.myojanaani pahiiyanti, anusayaa
byantiihonti.
>
> ``puna capara.m, aavuso, bhikkhuno dhammuddhaccaviggahita.m
maanasa.m hoti.
> hoti so, aavuso, samayo ya.m ta.m citta.m ajjhattameva santi.t.thati
> sannisiidati ekodi hoti samaadhiyati. tassa maggo sa~njaayati. so ta.m
> magga.m aasevati bhaaveti bahuliikaroti. tassa ta.m magga.m aasevato
> bhaavayato bahuliikaroto sa.myojanaani pahiiyanti, anusayaa
byantiihonti.
>
> ``yo hi koci, aavuso, bhikkhu vaa bhikkhunii vaa mama santike
> arahattappatti.m byaakaroti, sabbo so imehi catuuhi maggehi, etesa.m
vaa
> a~n~natarenaa''ti. dasama.m.
> pa.tipadaavaggo dutiyo.
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Please keep in mind that I am no expert in Pali as I make some
comments.
> The fourth part of this sutta, which starts with:
> "puna capara.m, aavuso, bhikkuno dhammuddhaccaviggahita.m"
> uses the term 'samadhiyati,' or samadhi quiescence= to be stayed,
composed.
> It is the passive voice of 'samadahati' or "to compose the
> mind/concentrate." This fourth section is thus, in
contradistinction with
> the previous three sections which speak of various combinations of
> vipassanaa and samatha.
>
> It seems to me, then, that this fourth section is speaking of a
> concentration (samadhi) that begins to occur more passively as
opposed to
> the active concentration of samatha, as a result of understanding
the Dhamma
> through study, reflection, and mindfulness. In the english words of the
> above translation, the understanding of the Dhamma is "well under
control"
> though not complete, and this allows samadhi (concentration) to
naturally
> develop in increasing levels. This, as I understand it, is what
some may
> refer to as dry insight.
>
> Anyway, like I said, take what I say with a grain of salt as you
will likely
> get some better responses.
>
> Metta,
>
> Alan
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris André Stranden" <bobtarzan@...>
> To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 1:00 PM
> Subject: [Pali] Jhana
>
>
> > Hello folks! :-)
> >
> > Are there any statements in the Palicanon that clearly states that
it is
> > possible to reach Nibbana without having such a strong samadhi
that you
> > can
> > enter the jhana-states?
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Chris André Stranden
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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