Dear Alan,

Thanks for the interesting story from Schumann.

> I would like to ask your permission to post your response to my

question in

> another Pali forum (E-sangha), giving you full credit of course. Is

this

> possible?

Of course. I didn't know there even WAS another Pali forum!

Metta,
John

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Alan McClure" <alanmcclure3@...> wrote:
> Hello John,
>
> Thank you very much for your very detailed explanation of the issue.
It
> basically supports my previous opinion that it is indeed difficult
to say
> with 100% assurance which translation is the original intended
meaning. As
> you have mentioned, this has led to disagreement between various
Buddhists
> as to which meaning is correct.
>
> A further interesting point that you have brought up is the case of the
> potential later addition by the Buddha of the fifth precept. I have,
> actually, seen in a book called "The Historical Buddha" by H.W.
Schumann, on
> p. 119:
>
> "When Gotama arrived in Kosambii in 520 BC, all such things still
lay in the
> future. The king's indifference to the Sangha, however, was obvious
and was
> reflected in the low morale of the local monks. How embarrassing
for the
> Buddha to find the bhikkhu Saagata lying before the city gate of
Kosambii,
> dead drunk!. On his alms-round, he had drunk a cup of palm-wine at
every
> door. It was not exactly a triumphal procession in which monks carried
> their intoxicated confrere back to the monastery, doubtless to the
> accompaniment of witty comments from the citizenry. This event
provided the
> occasion for the Buddha to issue an order prohibiting alcohol for
the monks
> (SV 51.1). Later he decreed that novices who were found to be drinkers
> should be refused full ordination (MV 1.60)."
>
> I don't know to what extent the work of Mr. Shumann rests in solid
scholarly
> research, but if solid, it may give us an idea about the beginning
of the
> precept against drinking, and perhaps, although with still some
uncertainty,
> an clearer idea about how the Buddha felt about alcohol.
>
> Again, I appreciate the time you have spent on this response and the
detail
> devoted to the grammar of the different compounds.
>
> I would like to ask your permission to post your response to my
question in
> another Pali forum (E-sangha), giving you full credit of course. Is
this
> possible?
>
> Thank you very much, and Metta,
>
> Alan
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John Kelly" <palistudent@...>
> To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 11:42 AM
> Subject: [Pali] Re: The precepts: abstention from alcohol
>
>
>
> > It's interesting too that in many places in the suttas only the first
> > 4 precepts are mentioned, which might imply that the 5th was a later
> > addition. I don't know whether any sholarly analysis has been done on
> > that issue.
> >