Hello John,

Thank you very much for your very detailed explanation of the issue. It
basically supports my previous opinion that it is indeed difficult to say
with 100% assurance which translation is the original intended meaning. As
you have mentioned, this has led to disagreement between various Buddhists
as to which meaning is correct.

A further interesting point that you have brought up is the case of the
potential later addition by the Buddha of the fifth precept. I have,
actually, seen in a book called "The Historical Buddha" by H.W. Schumann, on
p. 119:

"When Gotama arrived in Kosambii in 520 BC, all such things still lay in the
future. The king's indifference to the Sangha, however, was obvious and was
reflected in the low morale of the local monks. How embarrassing for the
Buddha to find the bhikkhu Saagata lying before the city gate of Kosambii,
dead drunk!. On his alms-round, he had drunk a cup of palm-wine at every
door. It was not exactly a triumphal procession in which monks carried
their intoxicated confrere back to the monastery, doubtless to the
accompaniment of witty comments from the citizenry. This event provided the
occasion for the Buddha to issue an order prohibiting alcohol for the monks
(SV 51.1). Later he decreed that novices who were found to be drinkers
should be refused full ordination (MV 1.60)."

I don't know to what extent the work of Mr. Shumann rests in solid scholarly
research, but if solid, it may give us an idea about the beginning of the
precept against drinking, and perhaps, although with still some uncertainty,
an clearer idea about how the Buddha felt about alcohol.

Again, I appreciate the time you have spent on this response and the detail
devoted to the grammar of the different compounds.

I would like to ask your permission to post your response to my question in
another Pali forum (E-sangha), giving you full credit of course. Is this
possible?

Thank you very much, and Metta,

Alan

----- Original Message -----
From: "John Kelly" <palistudent@...>
To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 11:42 AM
Subject: [Pali] Re: The precepts: abstention from alcohol



> It's interesting too that in many places in the suttas only the first
> 4 precepts are mentioned, which might imply that the 5th was a later
> addition. I don't know whether any sholarly analysis has been done on
> that issue.
>