Dharma friends,

The antaraabhaava problem (incl Ajahn Brahm's view) is discussed in detail in Sutta Discovery vol 2 no 17 (Is rebirth immediate?).

Sukhi

Piya

Kumaara Bhikkhu wrote:

> >To: theravada-my@yahoogroups.com
> >From: Aggacitta Bhikkhu
> >Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 19:32:49 +0800
> >Subject: Re: [tmy] Rebirth - Theravada & Tibetan beliefs
> >
> >Dear Chin Kah and Thim Fook,
> >
> >Below is an extract from my conclusion to the Course on Living & Dying organised by the Education Committee of Malaysian Buddhist Sangha Association and held in Than Hsiang Temple, Penang, from 20 ­ 25 October 2004. It is based on my lecture notes to sum up the views presented by different speakers from the three main Buddhist traditions and to round up the course.
> >
> >*Immediate Rebirth*
> >
> >According to orthodox Theravada perspective, rebirth occurs immediately after death. In my lectures based on my book, "Dying to Live", I have presented this perspective of Theravada orthodoxy which subscribes to an invariable order in the ripening of the particular kamma that is about to generate rebirth. The last few moments before physical death can play a crucial role in determining one's next rebirth, sometimes irrespective of one's general conduct in that particular lifetime. Nevertheless, the kamma that will produce a good rebirth must be a wholesome one.
> >
> >*Intermediate State between Existences*
> >
> >In contrast to the orthodox stand, there is significant Pali canonical evidence strongly suggestive of an intermediate state between one existence and another, a view supported by Theravada fundamentalists. Various suttas from the Nikayas clearly talk about a state of existence before actual rebirth as a another sentient being. Let me quote some examples from them.
> >
> >In Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta (MN 38) the Buddha states that for conception to occur, one of the conditions is that the being to be reborn (gandhabba) has to be present at the moment of union between the father and mother. Here, it is implicitly stated that there is an intermediate state of existence between death in the previous existence and rebirth in the next.
> >
> >There are various references to the rebirths of bodhisattas as well as other beings, which also imply as much. According to Sampasadaniya Sutta (DN 28) and Sangiti Sutta (DN 33), some beings "enter the mother's womb unknowing, stay there unknowing and leave it unknowing", while others "enter the mother's womb knowing, stay there knowing, and leave it unknowing". One who "enters the mother's womb knowing, stays there knowing and leaves it knowing” is, according to the commentary, a bodhisatta in its last rebirth. This is confirmed by several suttas that describe the bodhisatta's moment of entry into the mother's womb as "being mindful and fully aware”. [Mahapadana Sutta (DN 14); Acchariya-abbhuta Sutta (MN 123); Pathama-tathagata-acchariya Sutta (AN 4: 27); Bhumicala Sutta (AN 8:70)].
> >
> >There are references to a fivefold typology of non-returners, one of which is called antaraparinibbayi (“attainer of Nibbana in the interval”), in the Samyutta Nikaya (SN 48:15, 24, 66, 51:26, 54:5, 55:25); Purisagati Sutta (AN 7:55) and Samyojana Sutta (AN 4:131). Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi, in his "The Connected Discourses of the Buddha: a new translation of the Samyutta Nikaya", Volume II (Note 65, Pp 1902-1903), argues (with support from Samyojana Sutta) that the antaraparinibbayi is "…one who has abandoned the fetter of rebirth (upapattisamyojana) without yet having abandoned the fetter of existence (bhavasamyojana)."
> >
> >Orthodox Theravadins argue against this interpretation of the antaraparinibbayi because in the Kathavatthu (e.g. Kv 366), an Abhidhamma text regarded by them as canonical, the idea of antarabhava (intermediate life) was strongly refuted.
> >
> >However, there is further evidence to consider. In Metta Sutta (Khp 9, Sn 1:8) there is reference to bhuta (those who have been born) and sambhavesi (those seeking birth). Several suttas [Channovada Sutta (MN 144); Channa Sutta (SN 4:35:87); Catuttha-nibbana-patisamyutta Sutta (Ud 74)] mention the states of "here or beyond or between the two". Kutuhala Sutta (SN 4:44:9) also tells of "a being [that] has laid down his body but has not yet been reborn in another body".
> >
> >All the above references from the suttas implying an intermediate state of existence should provide sufficient food for thought by Theravadins and ample reason to keep an open mind regarding the mystery of dying and rebirth.
> >
> >Although fundamentalist Theravadins may subscribe to a belief of an intermediate afterlife, it does not necessarily mean that they accept all of the bardo (“gap in between” or intermediate state) teachings postulated by the Vajrayana tradition.
> >
> >
> >...We should bear in mind that any doctrine on the physical and non-physical aspects of dying and what happens immediately after death is but an attempt to conceptualise reality through a model based on certain general principles. These principles are largely influenced by religious beliefs, social and cultural environment, scientific theories, empirical observation and direct or indirect clairvoyant experiences...
> >
> >At 05:24 PM 9/17/2004 +0800, you wrote:
> >>Dear Chin Kah
> >>
> >>I would think it's the other way around, ie beings in those bardo
> >>states have already been reborn. But, our Ven Sir may wish to shed more
> >>light on this.
> >>
> >>With Metta.
> >>
> >>On Sep 17, 2004, at 16:31, Lim Chin Kah wrote:
> >>
> >>> Dear Ven. Aggacitta,
> >>>
> >>>  In Theravada Buddhism, we are taught that rebirth is immediate.
> >>>
> >>>  In Tibetan Buddhism (and also Mahayana Buddhism), we are taught about
> >>> the Bardo states when a person can take up to 49 days (7 periods of 7
> >>> days each) before final rebirth takes place.
> >>>
> >>>  If both teachings come from the same Teacher (ie Lord Buddha), how
> >>> does one "reconcile" the two beliefs.
> >>>
> >>>  Or can one say that the immediate rebirth as taught in the Theravada
> >>> Buddhism the equivalent of the first rebirth in the 7 Bardo stages?
> >>>
> >>>  I will be grateful to have your clarification, Venerable.
> >>>
> >>>  Thank you.
> >>>
> >>>  with metta,
> >>>  chinkah
> >>
> >>
> >
> >metta,
> >Aggacitta
>
>
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