Dear Bhante,
I am a new member of this group. I am quite confused
and astonished by these interactive discussions of
"antaraabhava". As a beginner of reading "Pali
Tipitaka" (I used to read Agamas in Chinese), the
question deep in my heart is: " Is it an issue of
"avyaakata"?
Furthermore, in Taiwan, we talked to a lot of people
discussing issues based on "Jhana achievements",
although not everyone tended to discard tipitakas, but
they proposed to feel the temperature by hands instead
of by thermometer, it is, go to jhana and feel it
yourself, do not just follow suttas{sutras). As I am
collecting more ages and getting old, I refuse to
accept this kind of descriptions. To most of "Jhana
achievers", you naver have chance to examine their
status of so-called "Jhana".
Yifer
--- Stephen Hodge
<s.hodge@...> 寫:

---------------------------------
Dear Bhante,

> This is truly the case... if there were not naama or

ruupa, it would mean

> (temporary?) nibbaana...

Note however that there have been several recent
scholarly discussions
concerning the precise meaning of naama-ruupa which
suggest that the
original and authentic meaning of the term within
early Buddhism was other
than the one commonly accepted nowadays. For example,
Rod Bucknall
discusses the term at length in his article on the PS
("2Conditioned Arising
Evolves" pp311-342 JIABS 22.2 1999) and persuasively
concludes that
naama-ruupa actually denotes mental and physical
objects of perception
(vijnana). This understanding of naama-ruupa avoids
the problem you raise.

> according to the Theravada, I would say that those

beings have not yet

> died.
> You see, it's semantics :)

Even if they have been cremated ? I disagree that it
is a matter of
semantics -- don't let dogmatics prevent you from even
considering the
possibility of experiencing this for yourself. My own
limited experience
with antaraabhava beings suggests that most people are
pretty confused when
they have died and can get even more confused and
frightened when their
bodies have been disposed of by burial or cremation.
Autopsies are also
very bad news. Actually, in that respect it is
fortunate that most people
get reborn quite soon after death, but some remain in
the antaraabhava state
for several weeks so it is best, but difficult these
days, to keep a corpse
"on hold" for a while or at least not harm or destroy
it -- the antaraabhava
being often tries for a while to re-enter the corpse
through fear and
attachment.

If one can establish contact with the antaraabhava,
the greatest service one
can render is re-assurance and whatever degree of
Dharma guidance one can
manage or is appropriate. Theravada teaches that the
quality of the last
thought-moment before death is extremely important.
Accepting the reality
of the antaraabhava allows the possibility of helping
that person overcome
any negativity such as fear, attachment or anger.

So, Bhante, rather than blindly accept received
dogmas, you could try to
verify the reality of the antaraabhava yourself by
direct experience. As I
said previously, it is simply a matter of gaining some
accomplishment in the
jhanas and being with dying / dead people -- actually,
you do not even need
to be in their presence, while one can't be anyway
after the corpse have
been removed. Even if you don't discern the
antaraabhava, you will still
get benefit by being reminded forcefully of the nature
of sickness,
suffering and death -- which will eventually be very
valuable to yourself
when your time comes.

Best wishes,
Stephen Hodge