--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Kumaara Bhikkhu <venkumara@...> wrote:
> Dear Rett and all,
>
> At 02:15 AM 26-05-05, rett wrote:
> >Yes, there seem to be two aspects in the commentary. One is that
of
> >paying attention to the passing away of wind-related sensations
in
> >the body. (such as the last micro-second of a breath or a burp or
> >fart)
>
> A fart? I'll try relax and pay more attention to it the next time
I notice it coming. :-)
>
> Anyway, I wouldn't think of "passing-away"s occurring only at the
end of a breath or any bodily sensation.
>
> >This could explain the impression described by Bhante Kumara,
> >that the interpreters seem to stretch the interpretation beyond
the
> >most simple and obvious reading.
>-------------
> You hit the right nail on the head.
> In highlighting the bit on "kaaye bhinne", I was just pointing out
what is obvious. Reading the whole of that bit just makes me lose
faith in the commentators.
the commentaries are helpful in many ways. However, when it comes
to stretching the meaning of the Pali, or adding its own ideas
(particularly those that contradict the Pali) and apocryphal
stories, I rather disappointed about them.
>
> FYI, I was once a faithful, ultra-orthodox Theravadin. But as I
came to learn more, I began to see the silliness in that, and I can
no longer go by orthodox views.
>
>====================
Dear ven. Kumara,
Consider the Madhupindika Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn018-tb0.html

BUddha:"If, monk, with regard to the cause whereby the perceptions &
categories of complication assail a person, there is nothing there
to relish, welcome, or remain fastened to, then that is the end of
the obsessions of passion, the obsessions of resistance, the
obsessions of views, the obsessions of uncertainty, the obsessions
of conceit, the obsessions of passion for becoming, & the obsessions
of ignorance. That is the end of taking up rods & bladed weapons, of
arguments, quarrels, disputes, accusations, divisive tale-bearing, &
false speech. That is where these evil, unskillful things cease
without remainder." That is what the Blessed One said.""

=========
ROBERT:Seems simple enough and straightforward? Yet t venerable
Bhikkhus in those days didn't think so (were they more or less
foolish than us of these times?):

==========
Sutta: ""Then, not long after the Blessed One had left, this thought
occurred to the monks: "This brief statement the Blessed One made,
after which he went into his dwelling without analyzing the detailed
meaning ? ..Now who might analyze the unanalyzed detailed meaning of
this brief statement?" So the monks went to Ven. Maha Kaccana and,
on arrival exchanged courteous greetings with him.

Ven. Maha Kaccana said this: "Concerning the brief statement the
Blessed One made, ....

"Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of
the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there
is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What
one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one
complicates. Based on what a person complicates, the perceptions &
categories of complication assail him/her with regard to past,
present, & future forms cognizable via the eye.


"Dependent on nose & aromas, nose-consciousness arises The meeting
of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition,
there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives (labels in the
mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about,
one complicates. Based on what a person complicates, the perceptions
& categories of complication assail him/her with regard to past,
present, & future forms cognizable via the eye.
============
ROBERT: What is this about nose and nose consciousness? The Buddha
was speaking about weapons and arguing? (Maybe the farts come in
here)
=================


"When there is the nose When there is a delineation of contact, it
is possible that one will delineate a delineation of feeling. When
there is a delineation of feeling, it is possible that one will
delineate a delineation of perception. When there is a delineation
of perception, it is possible that one will delineate a delineation
of thinking. When there is a delineation of thinking, it is possible
that one will delineate a delineation of being assailed by the
perceptions & categories of complication
=========
Robert:It repeats for all 6 senses...
=================
"When there is no nose it is impossible that one will delineate a
delineation of contact. When there is no delineation of contact, it
is impossible that one will delineate a delineation of feeling. When
there is no delineation of feeling, it is impossible that one will
delineate a delineation of perception. When there is no delineation
of perception, it is impossible that one will delineate a
delineation of thinking. When there is no delineation of thinking,
it is impossible that one will delineate a delineation of being
assailed by the perceptions & categories of complication.
=========
ROBERT: It repeats for all 6 senses. The sutta is very long.
Mahakaccana expands it to several pages and the PTS actually give it
in abbreviated form. I only supply enough above to give the general
gist...
The Venerable Bhikhhus later went to the Buddha and told him what
MahaKaccana had said.
You might expect the Buddha to say that Mahakaccana stretches the
interpretation beyond the
most simple and obvious reading..
But lo, he doesn't say that at all:
===========
SUTTA: Then the monks, delighting & approving of Ven. Maha Kaccana's
words, rose from their seats and went to the Blessed One. On
arrival, having bowed down to him, they sat to one side. As they
were sitting there, they [told him what had happened after he had
gone into his dwelling, and ended by saying,] "Then Ven. Maha
Kaccana analyzed the meaning using these words, statements, &
phrases."

"Maha Kaccana is wise, monks. He is a person of great discernment.
If you had asked me about this matter, I too would have answered in
the same way he did. That is the meaning of this statement. That is
how you should remember it." endsutta
========
RobertK