--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, rett <rett@...> wrote:
> >
> >>
> That's Soma Thera's translation right?
============
Dear Rett,
Yes Venerable Soma of Sri Lanka. A bit of a free translation so have
to be careful with some sections.
==========





>
> >
> >To me the commentary is stressing one aspect of dissolutiuon here.
> >In other sections of the sutta the commentary explains with regard
> >to the arising and passing of phenenoma:
>
> Yes, there seem to be two aspects in the commentary. One is that
of
> paying attention to the passing away of wind-related sensations in
> the body. (such as the last micro-second of a breath or a burp or
> fart)
>
> The second is more of an intellectual reflection, where one takes
> this passing away of immediate sensations and visualizes it in
> connection with the long term decay of the body. It's as though
> immediate sensations become harbingers or symbols of concepts
within
> the teachings. The moment of dissolution of any sensation speaks
> "anicca". Things like that.
>
> I've long been curious about these two kinds of contemplation,
since
> they are both comprised under the idea of mindfulness, yet they
seem
> to exclude each other. While focussed on raw sensations it's hard
to
> reflect in wider philosophical terms, yet while drawing those
wider
> lessons it's hard to pay attention to raw physical sensations, at
> least for me.
>
> It seems to me that the commentary has come into being in an
> agglutinative way: that any new interpretation of a passage has
been
> admitted, as long as it's judged to fit with the teachings as a
> whole. This could explain the impression described by Bhante
Kumara,
> that the interpreters seem to stretch the interpretation beyond
the
> most simple and obvious reading. Two or more different practices
seem
> at times to have been catalogued under one heading. This makes the
> commentary more of a storehouse of teachings at times
========
I think the Buddhas teachings are very deep and can be seen from
different angles - even one word. The commentary can't give every
aspect on each sentence but has a beautifully refined way of
stressing what is appropriate .
On your comment:

Rett:"curious about these two kinds of contemplation, since
> they are both comprised under the idea of mindfulness, yet they
seem
> to exclude each other. While focussed on raw sensations it's hard
to
> reflect in wider philosophical terms, yet while drawing those
wider
> lessons it's hard to pay attention to raw physical sensations, at
> least for me.""




The Dhammapada pradipaya (see p457 of carter and palihawadana) says
about meditation on the three charateristics:
"to consider the coming into being of rupa on account of
ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition, and also to see the
mere characteristics of its instantaneous coming into being,
without looking for causative aspect; thus one should consider
the rise of rupa in five ways. Likewise to consider the rise of
the other 4 khandas in the same way...Thus the rise of the
pancakkhanda (five aggregates )is seen in 25 ways. To see that
the rise of the khandas is stopped by abolishing the
causes:ignorance, craving, kamma and nutrition..in this way the
cessation of the agregates should be seen" end quote

When it says 'reflecting' this means direct insight into the
actual
characteristics and conditions of the present moment right up to
the vipassana nanas and magga and phala, it is far more than only
thinking about Dhamma.

It all accords so well with the suttas:
Samyutta Nikaya (Khandha-
vagga, Last Fifty, Virtue) where Maha-Kotthita asked Sariputta what
the objects of awareness are for a monk who is a beginner; or a
sotapanna, or sakadagami or anagami or arahant.
Sariputta explained that the objects are the khandhas - (i.e
paramattha dhammas)
'The five khandhas of grasping, friend Kotthita, are the
conditions which should be pondered with method by a virtuous monk,
as being impermanent, suffering, sick, as a boil, as a dart, as
pain, as ill-health, as alien, as transitory, empty and not self...
Indeed, friend, it is possible for a virtuous monk so pondering
with method these five khandhas of grasping to realize the fruits of
stream-winning.'
'But, friend Sariputta, what are the things which should be
pondered with method by a monk who is a sotapanna?'
'By a monk who is a sotapanna, friend Kotthita, it is these same
five khandhas of grasping which should be so pondered.
Indeed, friend, it is possible for a monk who is a sotapanna ...
by so pondering these five khandhas ... to realize the fruits of
once-returning.'
'But, friend Sariputta, what are the things which should be
pondered with method by a monk who is a sakadagami .......method by
one who is an anagami (non-returner)?'
'By such a one, friend Kotthita, it is these five khandhas of
grasping which should be so pondered. It is possible, friend, for
an anagami by so pondering to realize the fruits of arahatship'.
'But, what, friend Sariputta, are the things which should be
pondered with method by one who is an arahat?'
'By an arahat, friend Kotthita, these five khandhas should be
pondered with method as being impermanent, suffering, sick, as a
boil, as a dart, as ill-health, as alien, transitory, void and not
self.
For the arahat, there is nothing further to be done, nor is there
return to upheaping of what is done. Nevertheless, these things, if
practised and enlarged, conduce to a happy existence to self-
possession even in this present life.'End sutta


I think what some buddhists take to be sati (mindfulness) is merely
sanna and vinnana (see the passage in the Visuddhimagga about the
money changer). Sati in satipatthana sutta is sati sampajanna - and
especially the type of sampajanna that is non-delusion.

Robertk