Dear Bhante Sujaato, Robert K and all

How are you?

You wrote:

"the custom of not allowing laypeople to see the Vinaya."

Are you sure about this custom? I don't think it exists in Myanmar
because there are public libraries where anyone can read Tipi.taka
Myanmar Translations (Cha.t.thasangaayanaa Editions). Some Burmese
lay householders who can affort the whole set of Tipi.taka
translations buy it and share it with friends and neighbours. In
fact, that is how I had a chance to begin reading many volumes of
Tipi.taka translations in my youth as I can borrow them from a lay
householder who owns a set of Tipi.taka translations - before I
studied Kaccaayana Pali Saddaa. Here, I mean "Ti-pi.taka", that is
to say, Vinaya Pi.taka translations as well.

And, of course, any laypeople can buy a set of Tipi.taka Myanmar
translations from the bookshops such as the one at Kambhaae in Yangon
(Rangoon), run by the Ministry Of Religious Affairs, which also
publishes them.

You also wrote:

"Another related problem is bhikkhuni ordination: traditional
Theravadins remain opposed to this, partly because they often
believe that 'Mahayana' monastics are not really bhikkhus and
bhikkhunis (if they are even Buddhists). Only ignorance of the
closeness of the monastic codes can sustain this belief - especially
in view of the fact that Chinese bhikkhuni ordination stemmed
originally from Sri Lanka!"

Your views here are rather simplistic. For example, why do you think
that those non-Theravadin monastics feel the need to call
themselves "Mahayana"? Don't you think that it sounded very arrogant?

And, don't you think that accusing Theravada ascetics of ignorance
of the closeness of the monastic codes made you sound arrogant and
conceited as well?

Let me tell you why Theravada ascetics and their followers regard
the so-called Mahayana monastics and their other variants as fakes.

I read during 2003 (or 2004?) in The Canberra Times that a Tibetan
lama ordained women as Bhikkhuniis, and claimed to the effect that
he had revolutionized something. As if long-suffering women denied
the opportunity to ordain were now liberated from the strict heavy-
handed Theravada Vinaya rules!

Guess what? This Tibetan lama is an acquaintance of mine. He is
married with children and goes about in lay clothes. He wears lama
robes only when there are ceremonies such as during Dalai Lama's
visit. Or perhaps he might have put on the monk's saffron robes when
conducting the so-called ordination ceremony of women. After those
ceremonies, he puts on lay clothes and lives and behaves like any
other householders! How convenient! :-) Did you go to that ceremony
(held outside Canberra)?

As far as I am concerned, this Tibetan lama is merely a householder
and ceremonial robe-wearer. And, those so-called Bhikkhuniis
ordained by this ceremonial robe-wearer are no more than fakes.

What do you think?

By the way, how have you been ordained? As a 'Mahayana' monastic?

Best wishes,

Suan Lu Zaw

www.bodhiology.org

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Bhante Sujato" <sujato@...> wrote:

Dear all,

I recently encountered an unfortunate side-effect of the custom of
not allowing laypeople to see the Vinaya.

I came across an excellent English translation of the Chinese
(Dharmagupta) Patimokkha, which i was very excited about including
in sutta-central. But unfortunately, it was translated in Chinese
temple, so making available for lay people was an issue.

A shame, for it showed in brilliant clarity just how close the
Dharmagupta Patimokkha is to the Theravada, and thus, how similar
the roots of the monastic traditions are, despite differing
appearances and practices.

One of my 'other' jobs is forming a body called the Australian
Sangha Association, bringing together Buddhist monastics of all
traditions, and i have been repeatedly pleased at how the various
traditions all regard the vinaya as a core aspect of our shared
committment to Dhamma.

Another related problem is bhikkhuni ordination: traditional
Theravadins remain opposed to this, partly because they often
believe that 'Mahayana' monastics are not really bhikkhus and
bhikkhunis (if they are even Buddhists). Only ignorance of the
closeness of the monastic codes can sustain this belief - especially
in view of the fact that Chinese bhikkhuni ordination stemmed
originally from Sri Lanka!

yours in Dhammavinaya

Bhante Sujato