Dear Friends,

> As far as I know it is completely acceptable for laity to
> read the Vinaya.
> However, they are not allowed to be present during the
> recitation of the
> Patimokkha and the acknowledgement of one's (monk's) faults.

I've heard that it is a falacy that lay people cannot listen to Patimokkha.
At one monastary they lock the doors during it, and at another they leave
them open. The introduction to the book we use for memorising it in English
in Thailand says "The doors of temples are left open and laypeople, provided
that they are not within a forearm's-length (hatthapaasa) of the sangha, are
welcome to see and hear the recitation of the Patimokkha if they wish to do
so." Monks are surely not allowed to come within the sima during the
recitation.

Once we had a monk, taking some kind of medication that was a diuretic, who
during the patimokkha got up and started tiptoeing away. Suddenly, amidst
some shouting I looked up and saw him standing at the door, fumbling with
the bolt lock. He didn't speak Thai, so he couldn't tell them the problem.
They had him sit down and he kneeled there for the rest of the patimokkha.
When he got up and left, the monk who had just finished reciting burst out
laughing. From his higher seat he could see a puddle of water where the
monk had been sitting.

> As far as lay people going to hell for judging monks and
> nuns... I think this is completely ridiculous. It is a job
> of the lay people to keep the monks in check. The monks
> have a responsibility to the lay people as the lay people
> have a responsibility to the monks. It is completely
> acceptable to point out the wrong doings of a monk or nun
> when they have not conducted themselves in a proper manner.
> Of course the lesser guidelines should not be considered as serious.

I think I disagree, to some extent. Good lay people should know better than
to point a monk's faults out to him openly. There is a saying in Thailand,
which is perhaps difficult to translate:

"Point out the dhamma, upset a lay person. Point out the vinaya, upset a
monk."

If there is some problem, they should probably go to the abbot, or the
senior monks in the monastary, or just do what they did in the Buddha's time
and talk behind his back to other lay people... that should work to smarten
him up.

> This is my experience and opinion, having been a novice in a
> Thai temple for a few years. If any of the bhikkhus in the
> group can comment, please excuse any mistakes I have made.
>
> David

Worse for a novice... the monk who told me the above saying added, "you
can't just point out a monk's wrongs to him any old way; he might hit you."

Yes, as Nina says, monks should behave like arahants, but one should always
keep in mind that by and far they aren't yet. :)

In the quest for the deathless,

Yuttadhammo