Hi Paul,
I'm very delighted to get your response - and to get confirmation that
others on this list are actually doing these Warder exercises too! ;-)
First, I think interpreting "bhante" as vocative and as King
Ajatasattu addressing the Buddha is more consistent with the rest of
the entire sutta (DN 2). Also I think if the text was intending to
say the honourable Purana Kassapa, then "bhava.m" would have been used
(see Warder p.35).
Second, thanks for pointing out that the text should read "karato" not
"karoto" - you are right, both Warder and the PTS edition of the Pali
had it that way. My error. Though, I will point out that the CSCD
(from the 6th council) has "karoto".
Third, I'm not sure where you get the interpretation that "karato"
means "cut, injure, hurt". I think it means "for the doer", dative of
"karant" (one who does). Walshe in his translation interprets it this
way too. I'd be happy to hear from those on the list more expert in Pali.
Fourth, "ekaagaarika" is consistently glossed as burglar or burglary,
see Warder p.173, PED, and Cone's "Dictionary of Pali Vol 1". And the
meaning fits more easily in the context of the passage than "turning
one into a householder", don't you think?
Thanks again for bringing up these interesting points.
May you be well, John
--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "paulocuana" <paulocuana@...> wrote:
>
> Hi John,
>
> --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, John Kelly <palistudent@...> wrote:
> > Pali - Every few days - [C237]
> > Warder - Exercise 21 (page 176)
> > Passages for Reading 1 (Part 1 of 4)
> >
> > eva.m vutte bhante Puura.no Kassapo ma.m etad avoca:
> > thus / said / venerable sir / Puura.na Kassapa / to me
> > / this / spoke
> > When this was said, venerable sir, Purana Kassapa said
> > to me:
>
> I had: ...the honorable Purana Kassapa said this to me.
> I think your translation is more correct. I picked up
> this obscure reference in the PED under "Bhante":
> "or with other oblique cases, as with nom. D I.179;
> DhA I.62. with gen. D I.179."
> This led me to think of "bhante" as a title, i.e. in the nominative.
>
> > karoto kho mahaaraaja kaarayato chindato chedaapayato
> > pacato paacayato socayato socaapayato kilamayato
> > kilamaapayato phandayato phandaapayato
> > by the doer / indeed / great king / by one who causes
> > to be done / by one who cuts / by one who causes to be
> > cut / by one who burns / by one who causes to be burnt
> > / by one who brings grief / by one who causes one to
> > bring grief / by one who makes weary / by one who
> > causes one to make weary / by one who makes tremble /
> > by one who causes one to make tremble
> > "Your majesty, by the doer or instigator of something,
> > by one who cuts, burns, brings grief, makes weary, or
> > causes terror, or instigates others to do likewise;
>
> The text has "karato" as the first word instead of "karoto".
> "Karato" meaning "cut, injure, hurt" ? This gave me:
>
> "To injure, Great King, to cause (it) to be done, to cut, to cause
> to be cut, to torture, to cause to be tortured, to grieve, to cause
> weariness, to quiver, to cause to quiver...
>
> > paa.nam atipaataapayato adinna.m aadiyato sandhi.m
> > chindato nillopa.m harato ekaagaarika.m karoto
> > paripanthe ti.t.thato paradaara.m gacchato musaa
> > bha.nato, karoto na kariiyati paapa.m.
> > living being / by one who causes to kill / not given /
> > by one who causes to take / breach / by one who cuts /
> > plunder / by one who carries off / burglary / by the
> > doer / in ambush / by one who stands / to another's
> > wife / by one who goes / falsely / by one who speaks /
> > by the doer / not / one would do / evil
> > by one who causes killing, or who breaks and enters in
> > order to steal, or carries off plunder, or commits
> > burglary, or lies in ambush, or commits adultery, or
> > speaks falsely; by the doer of all these no evil is
> > committed.
>
> ...to cause life to be destroyed, to take that which is not given,
> to break into a house, to take plunder, to turn into a householder
> (?), to stand in ambush, to approach the wife of another, to speak
> falsely, by so doing evil is not done."
>
> "ekaagaarika.m karoto" This is a confusing bit. Literally, I'm
> guessing "to turn (one) into (one) having a house".
> Perhaps this is a reference to causing a monk to commit one of the
> four offenses that would cause him or her to disrobe.
>
> Perhaps some help from the experts!
>
> THanks again John for taking on this difficult project.
>
> Mettena,
> Paul