Re: about bhaasiiyate and a sample sentence explained. Relational G

Venerable Bhante Pandita,
it is very kind of you to take so much time answering my questions.
I am delighted you chose the Ang. passage I have been staring at for a long
time as an example.
I go along and shall make quotes of R.G. for the sake of my fellow listers
and also for my own reviewing.
op 06-03-2005 08:51 schreef Ven. Pandita op ashinpan@...:

>>
>>> Bhaasiiyate is a verb derived from bhaas (the root) + ya (passive sign) + te
>>> (3rd pers. singular Present Tense ending)
> I think you know that there are two categories of verbal endings,
> namely, Attanopada and Parassapada endings, for each tense and mood. In
> actual usage, Attanopada is generally used for Passive and Absolute
> voices while Parassapada, for Active voice.
> In this case, the 3rd pers. sing. ending for Present tense is "ti" for
> Parassapada, "te" for Attanopada. I can't say anything about Warder, but
> you may check with other grammars, New Pali Course, for instance.

N: referring to Warder lesson 28, p. 314. (I remember now this was once
explained to me on this list):
attanopada: middle or reflexive inflection.
parassapada: ordinary inflections, called active or transitive.
The footnote says: not transitive in the ordinary narrower sense of taking a
patient. (This teaches me again that we should not compare with English
grammar).
Warder says the attanopada are rare in prose.
labhate: he obtains. We find them in the Jaatakas.

Bhante:

> Cha, bhikkhave, aanisa.mse sampassamaanena alameva bhikkhunaa
> sabbadhammesu anodhi.m karitvaa anattasa~n~na.m upa.t.thaapetu.m.
>
> [Com: anodhi'm karitvaati "ettakaava sa'nkhaaraa aniccaa, na ito pare"ti
> eva'm siima'm mariyaada'm akatvaa]
>
> The keystone of this sentence is "ala.m", an indeclinable meaning
> "possible, fit, proper, etc." I have already said in one previous post
> that indeclinables are viewed as nouns with invisible cases.
>
> The key relation in this sentence is:
> upa.t.thaapetu.m ---> ala.m (NIO/PUR) [Nominal Identity (Ordinary) and
> Purposive relations. See RG - 16]

Inserted correction:
From the above, it would appear as if NIO and PUR were two
alternatives, with different translations. But no: they are in reality
two relations bundled into one --- two different translations are
reflections of these relations.

N: quote:
<Infinitives:
Infinitives are considered as indeclinable verbal derivatives of Absolute
voice. They are related to the verb they qualify in Purposive Relation (PUR)
and
generally have the same subject as the verb they qualify.
However, they may serve as Active subjects or objects of the verbs
qualified by them when these verbs have no separate Active subject or
object.
When used in this way, infinitives are viewed as third person nouns in
nominative
case and singular number, and the main verb must agree with it.

E.g., So bhu~njitu.m pacati = He cooks to eat.
So ---> bhu~njitu.m ---> pacati (ASV) [active subject relation]
bhu~njitu.m ---> pacati (PUR)
phala.m datu.m kappati = (it) is possible to give (a / the) fruit.
phala.m ---> daatu.m (IOV)[inactive object relation]
daatu.m ---> kappati (PUR / ASV)
phala.m khaaditu.m labbhate = (it) is possible to eat (a / the ) fruit.
phala.m ---> khaaditu.m(IOV) khaditu.m ---> labbhate (AOV) [active object
relation]

The translation would be: "(It) is possible to bring about. . . (for

> PUR) / Bringing about is possible . . . ( for NIO)" [nominal identity normal]
>
> This is the most difficult part. If you can define the relation above,
> the rest would be easy enough.

*****

> When dealing with such a long and complex sentence, it is generally
> easier to go backwards. So:
>
> anattasa~n~na.m --->. upa.t.thaapetu.m (IOV --- Inactive Object
> relation. See RG - 7)

N quote:
ACCUSATIVE CASE

A. Inactive Object Relation (IOV)
Here an object in accusative case is related to a verb in Active or
Absolute Voice.
E.g. purise hanati/hato = ... kills (the) men.
purise ---> hanati/hato (IOV)
purise ---> ha~n~nate/hata.m (Absolute voice) = (The) men are killed.
purise ---> ha~n~nate/hata.m (IOV)
purise hantabba.m (Absolute voice) = (The) men should be killed.
purise ---> hantabba.m (IOV)

Bhante: Tr.: "to bring about the perception of non-self"

> Tr ( for all) "It is possible to bring about the perception of non-self
> . . . (or) Bringing about the perception of non-self is possible . . ."
>
> karitvaa ---> upa.t.thaapetu.m (ADV --- Adverbial relation. See RG - 16)

quote:
Gerunds
They are also indeclinable verbal derivatives of Absolute voice. They
can
have two senses; (a) real or figurative priority in time (b) causality. When
used
in the first sense, they have the same subject as the verbs qualified by
them and
are related to them in Adverbial Relation (ADV).
However, when the second sense is to be understood, they have subjects
different from those of the verbs they qualify and related to them in
causality
Relation (CAU).
E.g. * So pacitvaa bhu~njati = He cooks and eats. (real priority in time)
So ---> (pacitvaa) ---> bhu~njati (ASV)
pacitvaa ---> bhu~njati (ADV)
* So mukha.m vivaritvaa sayati = He opens the mouth and sleeps, i.e., sleeps
with
So ---> (vivaritvaa) ---> sayati (ASV) the open mouth.
mukha.m ---> vivaritva (IOV) (figurative priority in
time)
vivaritvaa ---> sayati (ADV)

Tr.: "having made . . ., to bring about"

> (It seems not to make sense, but it would become meaningful
> when other words are added later)
>
> anodhi.m ---> karitvaa (IOV --- Inactive Object relation. See RG - 7)
> Tr.: "having made no distinction / having made no discrimination"
>
> sabbadhammesu ---> karitvaa (LOV --- Locus-Verb relation. See RG - 12)

quote: LOCATIVE CASE

A. Locus - Verb Relation1 (LOV)
Here a noun expressing a point in space or time is related to a verb,
which
denotes the action that takes place there or then. Sometimes, it is related
to an
entity situated there or then.
ga"ngaaya.m nahaayati = ... bathes in the Ganges (river).
ga"ngaaya.m ---> nahaayati (LOV)
rattiya.m sayati = ... sleeps at night.
rattiya.m ---> sayati (LOV)

> Tr.: "having made (no distinction / no discrimination) . . . among all
> dhammas"
>
> (AND)
> sabbadhammesu ---> upa.t.thaapetu.m (LOV --- Locus-Verb relation. See RG
> - 12)
> Tr.: ". . . to bring about (the perception of non-self) on all dhammas"
>
> [You may note here that 'sabbadhammesu' is related to two words. It can
> be rather difficult to reflect such relationships in English translations]
>
> When we sum up what we've finished, the translation would become:
>
> "It is possible to bring about the perception of non-self on all
> dhammas, having made no distinction(discrimination) among all dhammas
> (i.e., among them)"
> (OR)
> "Having made no distinction(discrimination) among all dhammas, bringing
> about the perception of non-self on all dhammas( i.e. on them) is
> possible "
>
> The remaining part is a Relative clause (RG - 19), which is governed by
> the present participle "sampassamaanena".

Quote:
(a)Relative Clause
(1) There must be a present participle governing the clause.
(2) It must be in Active or Passive voice and follow the case, gender and
number of its Active subject or object.
(3)The case of the Active subject or object depends on its relation to some
word
in the main clause.
(4) Every Relative Clause can have two different interpretations and,
accordingly, the participle governing it can have two different relations.
They are as follows---

a.It is related to the main verb in Definitive Relation (DEF)1,OR,
b.It is related to its Active subject or object in Identical Adjective
Relation (IAD).

We would analyze it word by word:

>
> bhikkhunaa ---> sampassamaanena (ASV - Active Subject relation. See RG 5
> & 19)

> bhikkhunaa ---> karitvaa / upa.t.thaapetu.m (ISV - Inactive Subject
> relation. See RG - 9)

C. Inactive Subject Relation4 (ISV)
Here an Inactive subject is related to a passive/ absolute verb.
Purisehi ha~n~nate/ hata.m =... is killed by (the) men.
Purisehi hantabba.m =... should be killed by (the) men.
Purisehi ---> ha~n~nate/ hata.m / hantabba.m (ISV)

> sampassamaanena ---> upa.t.thaapetu.m (DEF - Definitive relation. See RG 19)

Quote:
Pitari kaa.le putto kaa.lo hoti = (As / When) (the) father is dark, (the)
son is dark.
Pitari ---> kaa.le (NIO)[nominal identity relation] kaa.le ---> hoti
(DEF)
putto ---> hoti (DASO - P)[double active subject ordinary] ka.lo --->
hoti (DASO - S)

daarakassa rodantassa asso dhaavati = (Even as / Even while) (the) child is
crying, the horse runs (away).
daarakassa ---> rodantassa (ASV)[active subject rel.] rodantassa --->
dhaavati (DEF)
asso dhavati (ASV)
Absolute Voice Clause
(1)The participle governing the clause is a past or present or future
participle.
(2) It is in Absolute Voice, Genitive or Locative case, Neutral gender and
Singular number. It is related to the main verb in Definitive Relation
(DEF).

> Trs.: (As / While / When) the monk observes . . ., (it is possible)
> for him to bring about . . .
> (OR)
> sampassamaanena ---> bhikkhunaa (IAD - Identical Adjective relation. See
> RG -15)

(see above)

> bhikkhunaa ---> karitvaa / upa.t.thaapetu.m (ISV - Inactive Subject
> relation. See RG - 9)
> [bhikkhunaa ---> sampassamaanena (ASV)? NOT CORRECT!!! Relations must be
> mono-directional only]
> Trs.: (It is possible) for a monk who observes . . . to bring about . . .
>
> Note: You would notice that "bhikkhunaa" has been translated as "for a
> monk (for him)" even though it is the Inactive subject of "karitvaa" and
> "upa.t.thaapetu.m". It is meant to circumvent the fact that English
> syntax does not allow a subject in such a place (If it does, I don't
> know it).
>
> aanisa.mse ---> sampassamaanena (IOV - Inactive Object relation. See Rg - 7)
> Trs. " observes the benefits . . ."
>
> bhikkhave ---> ? (stand alone Vocative. no relation required)
> Trs. "O monks!"
>
> cha ---> aanisa.mse (IAD - Identical Adjective relation. See RG - 15)
> Trs. "six benefits"
>
> Then the relative clause ("Cha, bhikkhave, aanisa.mse sampassamaanena
> bhikkhunaa") can be translated as:
>
> "O monks! When (While / As) a monk observes six benefits . . ."
> (OR)
> "O monks! A monk, who observes six benefits, . . ."
>
> When we combine it with the main clause, the whole sentence would come
> out in 4 versions:
>
> 1. "O monks! When (While / As) a monk observes six benefits, it is
> possible for him to bring about the perception of non-self on all
> dhammas, having made no distinction(discrimination) among all dhammas
> (i.e., among them)"
> 2. "O monks! When (While / As) a monk observes six benefits, bringing
> about the perception of non-self on all dhammas is possible for him,
> having made no distinction(discrimination) among all dhammas (i.e.,
> among them)"
> 3. "O monks! It is possible for a monk who observes six benefits to
> bring about the perception of non-self on all dhammas, having made no
> distinction(discrimination) among all dhammas (i.e., among them)"
> 4. "O monks! Bringing about the perception of non-self on all dhammas is
> possible for a monk who observes six benefits, having made no
> distinction(discrimination) among all dhammas (i.e., among them)"
>
> Now you might be tempted to ask, "Which is the correct one?" My answer
> would be that all are correct grammatically and syntactically. You
> choice would have to depend on the context, on how you interpret it.

N: Perhaps the Co can give us the clue:
[Com: anodhi'm karitvaati "ettakaava sa'nkhaaraa aniccaa, na ito pare"ti

> eva'm siima'm mariyaada'm akatvaa.

Not having put limits to the sa'nkhaaraa aniccaa.
He realizes all of them as aniccaa.
I went through the R.G. to make the quotes and that is the way to learn. But
I still have to ruminate them.
With respect,
Nina.