Venerable Bhante Pandita, dear Yong Peng,
Thank you very much, Bhante. I shall insert my quotes from R.G. and
questions.
op 24-02-2005 10:25 schreef Ven. Pandita op ashinpan@...:

>
> What I wish to point out here is the different approach used in the
> Burmese tradition of Pali study. Given a Pali text more or less
> homogenous in the level of difficulty, the first paragraph or page is
> the most difficult for a typical Burmese student. You see, all concepts
> of RG might be exhausted before a paragraph is finished.

N: Is the structure of Burmese similar to the structure of Pali? What is the
history of this Relational Grammar? Is it an old tradition? How is it
related to the traditional grammars such as the Kaccayaana?
I see that all notions you use are stemming from Pali, as indicated in the
footnotes: vutta, avutta, etc.
I have great trouble with the notions of acitive and inactive subjects and
objects, since I do not know much about grammar. Perhaps after having gone
through many examples?
We should not compare with European grammars, but start to think in Pali.

> Yong Peng wrote:
>
>> But, please help me once again if the following is better than the one I
>> posted earlier:
>>
>> Ajja etena maggena mayaa gantabba.m.
>> today / by this / by road / by me / should be gone
>> I should be gone by this path today. (paraphrased)
>>

Bhante: Before giving my opinion, I need to digress. I should remind you
that I

> have said Absolute voice is also possible with gantabba.m. You have
> already seen the format of Absolute voice in RG. What matters here is
> the actual usage.

Nina: quotes absolute voice of R.G.:
<Absolute Voice:
1. The verb may be transitive or intransitive.
2. Both the subject and object, if any, are inactive.
3. The verb may be a conjugated form or a present, past or future
participle.
4. If the verb is a conjugated form, it must be of third person and singular
number.
5. If the verb is a participle, it must be of neutral gender and singular
number. If it is a main verb, it must have a nominative case.
e.g.Purisena dhamma.m bhaasiiyate. = Dhamma is said by (the/a) man.
(Inactive subject) (Inactive object) (Transitive Absolute verb)>

Q. N: I do not understand the absolute voice, but I shall study your
examples.
I have trouble with the ending: bhaasiiyate. I see that this ending is used
many times in your examples.

Bhante: When do we use Active voice, and when do we use Passive voice? If
we

> wish to emphasize on the agent of the verb, we use Active voice. On the
> contrary, if we wish to emphasize on the object, we use Passive voice.
> (This is correct for Pali and I think it is the same for English; please
> correct me if not)

N: I think so. Maybe Rett can say more?
Bhante: We use Absolute voice when we wish to emphasize neither on the
subject

> nor on the object but on the verb itself.
>
> With Absolute voice, the object, if there is one, would be inactive. So:
>
> Raajagaha.m ---> gantabba.m (IOV - See the Inactive Object - Verb
> relation in RG - 7)

Nina quotes:
<ACCUSATIVE CASE

A. Inactive Object Relation3 (IOV)
Here an object in accusative case is related to a verb in Active or
Absolute Voice.
E.g. purise hanati/hato = ... kills (the) men.
purise ---> hanati/hato (IOV)
purise ---> ha~n~nate/hata.m (Absolute voice) = (The) men are killed.
purise ---> ha~n~nate/hata.m (IOV)
purise hantabba.m (Absolute voice) = (The) men should be killed.
purise ---> hantabba.m (IOV)>

Q. Nina: thus, the emphasis is on gantabba.m and on hantabba.m, on the verb,
as I understand.
I still have trouble with inactive object, why inactive.

Bhante: Other relationships would remain the same. Then the literal
translation

> would be:
> "(Raajagaha) should be gone (to) by this road by me" (You see, I still
> have to use Passive voice because English has no Absolute Voice)
>
> The new translation of yours represents Absolute voice better, for no
> particular destination is mentioned nor cared for. With Passive voice,
> on the contrary, the destination must be expressed, or understood and
> given in translation.

N: I shall continue later on with your other post to Yong Peng.
With respect,
Nina.