Dear Rajendra Jadhao,

It is true, while there was succes in not practicing
the caste system during the time of the Gurus, the
fruits of the Gurus efforts crumbled not long after.
But the Sikhs who migrated out of India saw better
results. But then, this also applies to the Hindus as
well.

Maybe the rationality in Buddhism would be a better
"weapon" against such a demeaning practice so deeply
rooted in India.

Anyway, yesterday, I met two Indian monks visiting
Malaysia. One was from Jammu-Kasmir, district of
Ladak, where he said there is a Buddhist majority, and
the other was from Kanpur, UP.

They were both doing their MA in Thailand.

Yesterday, fullmoon, they also celebrated Bukkhuni
Sanghamitta day, and remembered the many effected by
the tidal wave caused by the eartquake in Sumatra.
A short Dhamma talk was given by the first Theravada
Bikkuni ordained since the Bikkhuni order disapeared
in Sri Lanka.

Sukhdev


--- "R.O.Jadhao" <jadhao@...> wrote:

>
> Dear Sukhdev.
>
> Since there was no reply from you, I thought you
> have forgotten or not
> interested in continuing this exchange. But I am
> happy to know that you have
> replied. You might be correct in saying that most
> people of Indian origin
> might not know about untouchability in India. And
> you seem to think that
> untouchables are sudras. Actually sudras are
> different and untouchables are
> different. Sudra's are those people engaged in
> craftmanship like carpenters,
> blackmiths etc. They are touchables.
> Untouchables are placed in the Indian society lower
> than sudras.
> Untouchables are referred as ati-sudras. Their touch
> is supposed to pollute
> other people. Anyways.
>
> The sikh gurus indeed tried to break the caste
> systems but with all due
> respects to them, sikhs follow the caste system. And
> there are untouchables
> in sikhism also in spite of all the work done by the
> past gurus.
>
> Dr .Ambedkar announced in 1930 his intentions to
> renounce hinduism. He spent
> next 26 years in studying different religions before
> deciding to embrace
> Buddhism. He indeed considered Sikhism at certain
> point of time. But after
> his discussions with sikh leaders of those days
> (Master Tarasingh and
> Balwant Singh) and observation of society in Punjab,
> he learned that we are
> more likely to remain untouchables even after
> conversion to Sikhism. Because
> there some castes of sikhs (like Ramdasis) who are
> treated as untouchables
> by the higher caste jat sikhs. So finally, he
> decided to convert to
> Buddhism. He had his own reasons for converting
> Buddhism. He found Buddhism
> to be most rational. The Buddha did not claim to be
> a god, or son of god or
> phrophet of god. And he strived to abolish caste
> system as seen from various
> suttas like ambattha sutta, vasettha sutta etc.
>
> Dr. Ambedkar converted to Buddhism in 1956 along
> with millions of
> followers. If you want to know more about him
> www.ambedkar.org is good site.
> Also www.buddhanet.net has a page about him.
>
> Thank you for reply
>
> R.O.Jadhao
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sukhdev Singh" <sukh2val@...>
> To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2004 7:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [Pali] Re:Introduce myself
>
>
> > Dear Rajendra Jadhao,
> >
> > Thank you for such an informative and inspiring
> > response. You might have correctly noted that most
> Indian
> >
> > Firstly, I am a second genertion (my parents were
> born
> > in Malaysia) Sikh in Malaysia and I have heard of
> the
> > untouchables in India. I think that most Indians
> > living outside India for more than generation
> have
> > little knowledge of the way the untouchables
> (sudra)
> > are treated or maybe were treated in India but I
> did
> > come to understand some aspects of it through some
> > Indian nationals working here in Malaysia. Some
> of my
> > little knowledge also comes from reading some Sikh
> > History books because the Sikh Gurus went all out
> to
> > break the caste system mentality.
> >
> > It is also from these history books that I read
> about
> > Dr.B.R. Ambedkar. The author gave the figure of 8
> > million followers of the good doctor wanting to
> defect
> > Hinduism and the choice was between Sikhism and
> Islam.
> > Out of some or other bias I suppose no mention was
> > made of Buddhism.
> >
> > I was quite suprised to learn what you have just
> > written. Furthermore, the author did not go on to
> > explicity state what religion Dr. Ambedkar himself
> > embrace. I assumed that he became a Sikh.
> >
> > Thank you
> >
> > --- "R.O.Jadhao" <jadhao@...> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Dear Sukhdev.
> > >
> > > I was born to Buddhist parents. My parents and
> grand
> > > parents were converts
> > > to Buddhism. I can be called a "second
> generation"
> > > book. But anyways, as I
> > > read in a book by Simhalese author, a Buddhist
> is
> > > always someone who turns
> > > to the tripple gem because he is convinced that
> > > there is no better refuge.
> > > In Buddha's days, people used to listen to some
> > > discourse and they used to
> > > become so convinced that they automatically used
> to
> > > say "Buddham saranam
> > > gacchami, dhammam saranam gacchami, sangham
> saranam
> > > gacchami".
> > >
> > > Anyways, the above description is still
> insufficient
> > > to give you an idea on
> > > what "kind" of Buddhist I am. Let me provide
> some
> > > information on Buddhism in
> > > India.
> > >
> > > Buddhists in India are mainly found in four
> states :
> > > Maharashtra, Sikkim,
> > > Arunachal Pradesh and Jammu-Kashmir. There are
> about
> > > 9 million Buddhists in
> > > India as per 2001 census. And 90 percent of the
> > > Buddhists in India live in
> > > Maharashtra.
> > >
> > > But Buddhists form about 8 percent of the total
> > > population of Maharashtra
> > > state. I am from this lot. Buddhists in Sikkim,
> J&K
> > > and Arunachal Pradesh
> > > follow Vajrayana (Tibetan) kind of Buddhism and
> > > Buddhists in Maharashtra
> > > follow Theravada.
> > >
> > > Most Buddhists in Maharashtra are converted from
> the
> > > untouchable castes (I
> > > hope you know what are untouchable castes). Our
> > > leader, Dr.B.R. Ambedkar
> > > converted to Buddhism in a mass conversion
> ceremony
> > > held at Nagpur on 14
> > > October 1954. My forefathers were amongst those
> who
> > > embraced Buddhism on
> > > that occaision. Now slowly conversion to
> Buddhism is
> > > gaining momentum
> > > amongst the untouchable castes inUP.
> > >
> > > As regards to my exposure to pali language is
> > > concerned, it is common
> > > practice in the Buddhists families in
> Maharashtra to
> > > recite the ti sarana
> > > and panchasila everyday, which are in Pali. Also
> > > people hold ceremonies like
> > > paritta, etc where pali suttas are chanted. The
> > > marriage rituals in our
> > > community involve ti sarana, panchasila,
> triratna
> > > vandana, jai mangala
> > > a.t.thagatha which are in pali. Besides that we
> have
> > > many pali books (with
> > > translation to Marathi) available in our homes.
> > >
> > > I have personal interest in learnig pali because
> I
> > > want to read the pali
> > > suttas-- words spoken by the tathagata in their
> > > original without getting
>

=== message truncated ===




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