--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hodge" <s.hodge@...> wrote:
> > I have been giving some further thought to this msg of yours.
Sorry to
> disturb your evening in Japan, but there are some more points which
occur to
> me that I would like to put to you.
++++++
Dear Stephen,
not a problem as I am on holiday and travelling outside Japan this
month. I live in Kumamoto in southern JP.
>
> > Mind is a concept that also doesn't help us- cittas and cetasikas
> > are nama (mentality), they do not depend on 'brain'.
>
> 1. There is a line in the SN which says "naamaruupa-samudaaya
cittassa
> samudayo" -- which my poor Pali knowledge suggests "By the arising
of
> naama-ruupa, [there is] the arising of the citta". To me, this
implies that
> there is some sort of dependence upon ruupa as well as naama. I am
> therefore puzzled by the above statement of yours. Could you help
out,
> please ?
>+++++++
As I said in my earlier post:"In the kamaloka pancakhandha(five
aggregates) existence such as
humans and animals then naama depends on ruupa as you say. Eye
consciousness (cakkhu-vinnana) depends on the very subtle rupa
inside the center of the eye and arises there. Or for body
consciousness it can arise anywhere on the body (except nails and
hair) : so right now if you can feel a sensation around the foot
then consciousness arises at that area for an infinitely short
time.
So yes, all nama including citta is dependent on rupa in the human
realm.
++++++

> 2. I have seen it said that citta is basically synonymous
with "manas".
> If the "hadaya-vatthu" is said to be the base of manas, where or
what is the
> "hadaya-vatthu" ? It sounds suspiciously like a material thing to
me.
++++++++++
Yes, hadaya-vatthu is material. Last post: "According to the
Theravada for mind-door processes the rupa is
hadaya-vatthu , the heart base, and this is a very subtle rupa
arising dependent on blood in the heart."




>
> 3. Turning the direction of this discussion on its head, what
functions
> do you ascribe to the brain ? Medieval European doctors thought
that its
> purpose was to cool the blood. Do you subscribe to a similar view ?
+++++++

The brain is not given any detailed explanation in the texts. It is
only ruupa, materiality. There can be body consciousness arising
there sometimes but I haven't read anywhere where the Theravada says
it cools the blood.
++++++++++++


>
> > The texts are clear that many moments of nama/citta/mentality
arise
> > and pass away in a split second
> Throughout this discussion, somethinmg had been niggling me and then
> suddenly while pondering this in bed last night, I suddenly came
to me. I
> have been reading Buddhist texts for more than forty years but
never once
> have I come across "citta" in the plural (cittaani), outside
Theravadin
> commentaries, except in general sense as in such phrases as "the
minds of
> people", "their minds" etc. It should be noted that, as far as I
can
> ascertain, "cittaani" does not occur in any other sense in the Pali
nikayas.
> This is why I have been finding all this talk of "thoughts"
flashing by in
> trillionths of a second so curious. Of course, the concept is not
new to me
> but I had never really thought why nobody else mentions it in
Buddhist
> texts.

++++
I think best to learn what the ancients said. We are putthujana and
soaked in avijja. One of my teachers in thailand said we are like
pickles in a pickle jar -saturated by avijja (ignorance). Thus our
speculations come out of ignorance and wrong view.
Some details about Citta:

http://www.abhidhamma.org/Para3.htm
Citta is an element which experiences something, a reality which
experiences an object. It is the "chief", the leader in knowing the
object which appears 2. There is not only citta which sees, citta
which hears, citta which smells, citta which tastes or citta which
experiences tangible object, there is also citta which thinks about
many diverse subjects. The world of each person is ruled by his
citta. The cittas of some people have accumulated a great deal of
wholesomeness (kusala). Even when they meet someone who is full of
defilements they can still have loving kindness, compassion or
equanimity because of their accumulations of wholesomeness. Whereas
the world of someone else may be a world of hatred, annoyance, anger
and displeasure, according to his accumulations. Thus, in reality,
each person is all the time his own world.
It seems that we are all living together in the same world. However,
in reality all the different rúpas (material phenomena) which appear
through the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense and mind, all those
different phenomena could not appear and be of such importance, if
there were no citta, the element which experiences them. Since citta
experiences the objects which appear through the sense-doors and
through the mind-door, the world of each person is ruled by his citta.

When we think that there is the world, beings, people or different
things, we should know that this is only a moment of citta which
thinks about what appears to seeing, about visible object. Seeing
occurs at a moment different from thinking about what appears. For
everyone there is citta which arises just for a moment and is then
succeeded by the next one, and this happens continuously. Thus, it
seems that there is the whole wide world with many different people
and things, but we should have right understanding of what the world
is. We should know that realities appear one at a time, and that they
appear only for one moment of citta. Since cittas arise and fall
away, succeeding one another very rapidly, it seems that there is the
world which does not disintegrate, the world which lasts, with
beings, people and many different things. In reality the world lasts
just for one moment, namely, when citta arises and cognizes an object
just for that moment; and then the world falls away together with the
citta.
In the "Buddhist Psychological Ethics" ( the "Dhammasangaùi",
Book I, Part I, Ch I, § 6) several synonyms for citta have been
given. Citta is called mind (mano or månasa), heart (hadaya), "that
which is pure"(paùèara), mind-base (manåyatana), faculty of mind
(manindriya), consciousness (viññåùa), the khandha of consciousness
(viññåùakkhandha), the element of "mind-consciousness" (mano-viññåù
a dhåtu) 3.
The Buddha used several synonyms of citta so that the characteristic
of citta which is common to everybody could be understood. Citta is
reality, it is an element which experiences something, but it is
difficult to understand what exactly the characteristic is of the
element which experiences. People may more or less understand what
citta is; they know that it is the mind which is common to everybody,
but if one only knows this and does not really investigate the nature
of citta, one will not know at which moment citta occurs.
The "Atthasåliní", the Commentary to the "Dhammasangaùi",
(Expositor I, Book I, Part IV, Ch II, 140) states that the reality
which is citta is so called because of its variegated nature (the
Påli term vicitta means variegated or various). There is not only
one kind of element which experiences, one kind of citta, but there
are many different kinds. Citta is variegated. Its variegated nature
appears when we think of different subjects, when we think, for
example, about what we are going to do on a particular day. When we
consider this more, we shall find out that thinking occurs according
to the variegated nature of all the different cittas which arise.
When we are thinking, citta is the reality which thinks, and each
person thinks in a different way. Different people who are interested
in the Dhamma and study it, consider it and ponder over it in
different ways. They also have different points of view as far as the
practice is concerned. How will the world be in the future? It will
be again just according to the variegated nature of the cittas which
think of many different subjects.
Hence we see that citta is of a variegated nature. The citta which
sees through the eye-door is one type of citta. It is different from
the citta which hears through the ears, which is another type of
citta. The citta which thinks is again another type of citta.
The "Atthasåliní" states that citta is called "mind" (mano),
because it determines and knows an object (åramaùa or ålambana). The
word object, årammaùa, means: that which is known by citta. When
citta, the dhamma which experiences, arises, it cognizes what is
called an "object".
The study of citta is actually investigation of the realities which
are appearing at this moment, the realities which are internal as
well as those which are external, and in this way we shall come to
understand the characteristic of citta. Citta is a reality, but where
is it? Citta is an internal reality. When there is seeing, colour
appears outside and citta is the reality which is within, it
experiences what appears through the eyes. " endquote
RobertK