Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo,

> Dear Jim,
>
> I'm ready to translate another, but I'd like to settle this
> one a little bit first :)
> > The word 'aayatana' is given several meanings in passages
> such as the
> > one found at Vism XV.5. I'm not sure which meaning
> 'sphere' belongs
> > to, even though that is a word sometimes used to translate
> 'aayatana'
> > and is also included in the PED. For 'sphere', I think of
> Pali words
> > like 'gocara' and 'visaya' and I really wonder if it's an
> appropriate
> > translation for aayatana's sense of 'cause'. I'm aware
> that you're not
> > alone in choosing 'sphere' or one like it such as 'range'
> chosen by
> > F.L. Woodward in: whatever be his range. (GS i 233) and
> E.M. Hare in:
> > whatever the range may be. (GS iv 283). Both are
> translations of 'sati
> > sati aayatane'.
>
> Well, the PED gives a link to Buddhaghosa's DA I.124-5 which
> lists various definitions for aayatane, and says that for
> sati sati aayatane, the definition of aayatane should be
> kaara.ne.

There is also a shorter definition at AA II 272-3 where:
"pa~nc'imaani, bhikkhave, vimuttaayatanaaniiti ettha kaara.na.m." is
given as the example for the usage of one of the three meanings of
aayatana (DA gives 4).

> If I take that as definitive, I would assume, based on the
> Thai, that it should be translated in the sense of "cause".
> Maybe "base" works, a word which is commonly used for
> aayatana? (see my translation below)

I think your choice of 'basis' in your translation is a good one. That
is probably what I'd choose for my own translation. It also connects
well with 'upanissaya' in meaning.

[...]

> Sorry, here's a translation:
>
> " 'mua mii hetu' bleh jaak paalii waa 'sati sati aayatane'
> (mua mii hetu heng sati) ..."
> " 'when there is cause' is translated from Pali: 'sati sati
> aayatane' (when there is cause in regards to sati) ..."
>
> So why leave the word sati, which in Thai refers to the Pali
> noun "sati" (mindfulness)? Maybe just a mistake.

Thanks for the clarification. I think this relates to an inconsistency
problem of why some texts have 'sati sati aayatane' while others have
'sati sati-aayatane' which the Burmese .tiikaa even glosses as 'sati
satikaara.ne' (Mp-.t 3.143). The 'sati' of 'satikaara.ne' (a compound
word) can then be taken in the sense of mindfulness. I noticed that
the majority of texts show 'sati sati aayatane', however, suggesting
that this is the more accepted reading. I also think that the Pali
commentaries would have elaborated a little more on 'sati-aayatane' by
giving a resolution of the compound -- eg. satiyaa aayatane. I guess
it's best to keep an open mind to the possibility of 'sati-aayatane'.

> > > About tatra tatreva, I suppose a more literal
> translation
> > > could be sought, but the distinction part seems clear
> > > enough: in this or any (tatreva) distinction. I thought
> > > "here or anywhere" captured the idea without introducing
> a
> > > word that isn't there, but maybe I'm missing the
> point...
> >
> > I find the translations of 'tatra tatreva' as 'here and
> there (or
> > anywhere', 'this and/or that', or 'in every case' rather
> vague as they
> > don't tell you exactly what is meant or what the
> referrents are and
> > without the help of the commentary it's hard to guess.
> Interestingly,
> > the .tiikaa has: 'tasmi.m tasmi.m sacchikaatabbe
> visese' -- for this
> > or that distinction to be realised.
>
> I'm willing to agree to this, but I would rather translate
> word for word, and perhaps footnote the commentary for
> clarification. It would be nice just to translate it as "in
> this or that distinction", but maybe a footnote would do as
> well. At least with "here or anywhere", the idea of "in
> this or that training" seems clear.

I think the idea should point to the results of the training. 'tatra
tatreva' still seems difficult to translate and I would agree that
putting in 'distinction' would not be right except in a footnote. I
have to admit that the sentence in Pali still doesn't come across
clearly to me and I'm still at a loss as to how best to translate it
in full with all the phrases in harmony together.

> So, one last try, and then moving on...
>
> "Chahi, bhikkhave, dhammehi samannaagato bhikkhu abhabbo
> tatra tatreva sakkhibhabbata'm paapu.nitu'm sati sati
> aayatane.
> /with six /o monks /dhammas /endowed /a monk /is unable
> /there /there indeed /realisation with his own eyes/to
> attain /if there may be /basis/
> With six, o monks, dhammas endowed, a monk is unable, here
> or anywhere, to attain realisation with his own eyes, though
> there may be basis for it.
>
> tatra tatreva = here or anywhere
> sakkhibhabbata'm = realisation with his own eyes
> aayatana = basis
>
> Well, anyway, I see it is not perfect. Thank you immensely
> for the instruction.

We can leave it at that. Thanks for your effort and looking forward to
your next translation.

Best wishes,
Jim