Dear Jim,
I'm ready to translate another, but I'd like to settle this
one a little bit first :)
> The word 'aayatana' is given several meanings in passages
such as the
> one found at Vism XV.5. I'm not sure which meaning
'sphere' belongs
> to, even though that is a word sometimes used to translate
'aayatana'
> and is also included in the PED. For 'sphere', I think of
Pali words
> like 'gocara' and 'visaya' and I really wonder if it's an
appropriate
> translation for aayatana's sense of 'cause'. I'm aware
that you're not
> alone in choosing 'sphere' or one like it such as 'range'
chosen by
> F.L. Woodward in: whatever be his range. (GS i 233) and
E.M. Hare in:
> whatever the range may be. (GS iv 283). Both are
translations of 'sati
> sati aayatane'.
Well, the PED gives a link to Buddhaghosa's DA I.124-5 which
lists various definitions for aayatane, and says that for
sati sati aayatane, the definition of aayatane should be
kaara.ne.
If I take that as definitive, I would assume, based on the
Thai, that it should be translated in the sense of "cause".
Maybe "base" works, a word which is commonly used for
aayatana? (see my translation below)
> > Second, in regards to this still lingering idea of sati
> > translated as mindfulness, there is a curious anomaly in
the
> > Thai explanation, where it explains "sati sati aayatane"
as
> > "mua mii hetu". The exact passage:
> >
> > " 'mua mii hetu' bleh jaak paalii waa 'sati sati
aayatane'
> > (mua mii hetu heng sati) ..."
> >
> > The interesting part here is the part in parentheses.
Why
> > did they leave the word 'sati' there if it is a relative
> > correlative with tatra tatreva? And why only in
brackets?
> > Funny that.
>
> I have nothing to say on this as I'm among those who don't
read or
> speak Thai.
Sorry, here's a translation:
" 'mua mii hetu' bleh jaak paalii waa 'sati sati aayatane'
(mua mii hetu heng sati) ..."
" 'when there is cause' is translated from Pali: 'sati sati
aayatane' (when there is cause in regards to sati) ..."
So why leave the word sati, which in Thai refers to the Pali
noun "sati" (mindfulness)? Maybe just a mistake.
> > About tatra tatreva, I suppose a more literal
translation
> > could be sought, but the distinction part seems clear
> > enough: in this or any (tatreva) distinction. I thought
> > "here or anywhere" captured the idea without introducing
a
> > word that isn't there, but maybe I'm missing the
point...
>
> I find the translations of 'tatra tatreva' as 'here and
there (or
> anywhere', 'this and/or that', or 'in every case' rather
vague as they
> don't tell you exactly what is meant or what the
referrents are and
> without the help of the commentary it's hard to guess.
Interestingly,
> the .tiikaa has: 'tasmi.m tasmi.m sacchikaatabbe
visese' -- for this
> or that distinction to be realised.
I'm willing to agree to this, but I would rather translate
word for word, and perhaps footnote the commentary for
clarification. It would be nice just to translate it as "in
this or that distinction", but maybe a footnote would do as
well. At least with "here or anywhere", the idea of "in
this or that training" seems clear.
So, one last try, and then moving on...
"Chahi, bhikkhave, dhammehi samannaagato bhikkhu abhabbo
tatra tatreva sakkhibhabbata'm paapu.nitu'm sati sati
aayatane.
/with six /o monks /dhammas /endowed /a monk /is unable
/there /there indeed /realisation with his own eyes/to
attain /if there may be /basis/
With six, o monks, dhammas endowed, a monk is unable, here
or anywhere, to attain realisation with his own eyes, though
there may be basis for it.
tatra tatreva = here or anywhere
sakkhibhabbata'm = realisation with his own eyes
aayatana = basis
Well, anyway, I see it is not perfect. Thank you immensely
for the instruction.
Best wishes,
Yuttadhammo