--- Dear Christine and John,

The Mahavamsa is not part of the Tipitaka but is a chronicle of
Kings and the Sangha, and of immense value, I feel.
When we look at the texts do we believe they we can distinguish
what is true and what is not; do we think we have greater
understanding than the monks of old who passed on the teachings? On
this list someone believes he knows that suttas explaining literal
rebirth were added in by misguided monks, another doesn't accept the
Abhidhamma. I read on another site someone saying that the Buddha
couldn't have made the 8 garukka rules for nuns, or said some of the
other things he said about woman. Some think that the explanations
about sukkhavipassaka arahants are monk inventions. As the sasana
declines there will be less refutation of such doubts and gradually
the texts will be neglected and replaced with ideas current in the
culture at the time. It seems many wish to hasten this.

The King was fighting in Sri lanka after the Tamil kings invaded
from India and had almost taken over the country.

The duty of a King is grave and not to be envied. In one of the
Jatakas the Buddha is born as a prince but remembers that his last
life was 60,000 years being roasted in hell. And that was because in
his prior life he was a King, (who no doubt had to fight and inflict
punishment). So he refused to be King again.
Still whenever I hear of a wise person taking difficult duty I am
happy as I believe it is for the betterment of the society;
otherwise only buffoons and ruffians will become presidents,
generals, diplomats and police.

The arahants
knew that this king would do much for the Sangha and wanted to help
him out of his depression. (he became deeply depressed after
considering the deaths of all thos involved in the war)..
The abbreviated paragraph in the Mahavmasa may not do full justice
to all the discussion they had with the King. But when you are
relating hundreds of years and a long line of kings we can perhaps
forgive the author some occasional dialogue editing.

In the Dhammapada atthakattha there is the following story:
http://www.vipassana.info/f.htm
""Tambadathika served the king as an executioner of thieves for
fifty-five years; he had just retired from that post. One day, after
preparing rice gruel at his house, he went to the river for a bath;
he had intended to take the specially prepared rice gruel on his
return. As he was about to take the rice gruel, Thera Sariputta, who
had just arisen from sustained absorption in Concentration (jhana
samapatti), stood at his door for alms-food. Seeing the thera,
Tambadathika thought to himself, "Throughout my life, I have been
executing thieves; now I should offer this food to the thera." So,
he invited Thera Sariputta to come in and respectfully offered the
rice gruel.
After the meal, the thera taught him the Dhamma, but Tambadathika
could not pay attention, because he was so agitated as he
recollected his past life as an executioner. When the thera knew
this, he decided to ask Tambadathika tactfully whether he killed the
thieves because he wished to kill them or because he was ordered to
do so. Tambadathika answered that he was ordered to kill them by the
king and that he had no wish to kill. Then the thera asked, "If that
is so, would you be guilty or not ?" Tambadathika then concluded
that, as he was not responsible for the evil deeds, he was not
guilty. He, therefore, calmed down, and requested the thera to
continue his exposition."""

Perhaps if I had to put that into a sentence or two it might sound
like I'm trying to say killing is no big deal. But if we know the
purpose of Sariputta - to calm the Executioner, so he could listen
to Dhamma - we will understand better.

It is said that giving even the washings of a teacup to some fish
will bring great merit. And then giving to a normal human much more.
But giving to someone who has just the beginning of faith in the
Dhamma much more than that. Giving to someone who understands Dhamma
and keeps the precepts much more again , giving to a sotapanna much
much more and so on. Likewise it is much worse to kill a sotapanna
(from the point of view of the kammic results) than to kill a normal
human being. Worse to kill a person of average morality than a bad
man.
That is not to say that any killing is without result - simply that
the texts say that there are variations in kammic result. And this
is what the arahants were stressing to the King. Nowhere do they say
that killing doesn't bring a result.

They (and he) knew that the Kamma was bad but dwelling on evil done
in the past can make matters worse. Best to encourage the person to
do good deeds now and in the future. And the King, after that
discussion, seemed almost superhuman in the energy he put into the
projects for the benefit of the Ti-ratana, Triple gem.
When I'm in Thailand I have had a few times someone confide in me
some illdeed that is bothering them and I always say words to the
effect of "Don't worry, its inconsequential, that's all in the
past, Now you are a man
(or woman ) of faith and the results of that are incomparable and
wonderful." And I mean it.
RobertK
p.s
About the war the King said ""Not for the joy of sovereignty is this
toil of mine[the war], my striving (has been) ever to establish the
doctrine of the Sambuddha""

He listened to his mother(like a good buddhist son):
""The king Dutthagamani also took counsel with his mother and by her
counsel formed thirty-two bodies of troops. In these the king placed
parasol-bearers and figures of a king;' the monarch himself took his
place in the innermost body of troops""



"'Ninety-nine viharas have been built by the great king, and, with
(the spending of) nineteen kotis, the Maricavattivihara; the
splendid Lohapasada
To his younger brother he said: 'All the work of the Great Thüpa
which is still unfinished, do thou complete, my dear Tissa, caring
duly for it. Evening and morning offer thou flowers at the Great
Thupa and three times (in the day) command a solemn oblation at the
Great Thupa. All the ceremonies introduced by me in honour of the
doctrine of the Blessed (Buddha) do thou carry on, my dear, stinting
nothing. Never grow weary, my dear, in duty toward the
brotherhood (sangha).'""
http://lakdiva.org/mahavamsa/chap032.html

In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" <cforsyth@...> wrote:

> Dear Robert, John, all,
>
> Rob, I don't understand your question to John. On the surface, at
> least, the quote below from the Mahavamsa seems at odds with the
> teachings of the Fortunate One, don't you think? There were
> reportedly 60,000 human beings killed by this King and his army.
> (And, in the quote, the King and his soldiers seem to have been
> absolved from the vipaka of the deaths of 59,998.5 people which

are

> discounted and trivialised.) This war, if it occurred, was just a
> little footnote in history - not remembered today except in a
> relatively obscure text. If it occurred, then this killing was in
> brutal hand to hand combat. It takes a lot of intention, effort,
> fear and hatred to kill another human with a sword, knife, spear

or

> hammer - there are litres of blood, and noise - a lot of running,
> tackling, struggling, pleading, cursing - multiplied 60,000 times.
> (WMD are so easy by comparison.)
>
> Perhaps you are considering that the Arahant's explanation is in
> terms of anatta, that there really are no humans killing or being
> killed? But, the consolation was being given to a worldling, and

has

> no doubt been reflected on through the centuries by other

worldlings

> like me, who may not yet have penetrated the meaning of the 4NT.
> Additionally, there seems to be a dismissive devaluing of the

taking

> of the lives of Unbelievers ... my understanding is that the

Buddha

> taught us to respect, have tolerance for, and care about those who
> were followers of other teachers.
>
> John, I think it concerns me the most that the speech is said to

have

> been made by an Arahant. Often if I am uncomfortable or puzzled
> about anything in the Tipitaka, I put the concern aside hoping it
> will be clearer in the future, consoling myself that the Tipitaka
> bears the hallmark of approval of the Arahants. Perhaps this is
> naivety ... I have a memory (can't turn up the post) of someone
> stating that the Mahavamsa was examined and included in the

Tipitaka

> at the Sixth Buddhist Council in Burma in the fifties?
> ===============
> Quote, with speech attributed to an Arahant:
> "Only one and a half human beings have been slain here by thee, O
> lord of men. The one had come unto the (three) refuges, the other

had

> taken unto himself the five precepts. Unbelievers and men of evil
> life were the rest, not more to be esteemed than beasts. But as for
> thee, thou wilt bring glory to the doctrine of the Buddha in

manifold

> ways; therefore cast away care from the heart, O ruler of men
> (xxv.108-112)."
> ================
>