--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" <rjkjp1@...> wrote:

> Dear Jou,

Hi Robert

Hope you are well and happy.

> Thank you for your earlier reply and also for reposting this one.

My pleasure.

> I appreciate your looking up the pali to the phrases I gave.

nice of you to say.

> One thing: I am not sure why the sutta about dependent origination
> is evidence against literal rebirth?

Well the negative version is said to cover three lives. Right? So
logially the positive one would too, as it would be a mirror of the
same process, i.e. coming out of dukkha/samsaara, rather then going
into it. But I think it is obvious that the positive version is only
about this very life.

Even if it [or both] could be interpreted that way, why would one?
For didn't the Buddha make clear that his teaching [the 4 Noble
Truths, including the path and goal] was for this very life?

Peace and good health
Jou Smith

> --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Norman Joseph [Jou] Smith" <> > > I
> had a look through the majjima and samyutta and found many
> > > > references to rebirth.
> > > > I trust these examples suffice:
> > > > Saccasamyutta (p1885 Bodhi)
> > > > "so too bhikkhus those beings are few who when they pass

away

> as
> > > > human beings are reborn
> > > > as human beings. but numerous are those who,
> > > > when they pass away are reborn in hell.."
> > >
> > > M v 474 = M 56.102
> > >
> > > Evameva kho, bhikkhave, appakaa te sattaa ye manussaa cutaa
> > > manussesu paccaajaayanti; atha kho eteva bahutaraa sattaa ye
> > > manussaa cutaa niraye paccaajaayanti.
> > >
> > > This last word, in one dictionary I have gives both meanings

of

> to
> > > be born AND to be RE-born.
> > >
> > > > Khandavagga (samyutta nikaya)p1026
> > > > here bhikkhus someone practises good conduct of body, speech
> and
> > > > mind....then with the break-up of the body he is reborn in

the

> > > > company of devas who dwell in fragrant roots"
> > >
> > > S iii 251 = S 31.3
> > >
> > > Ayam. kho, bhikkhu, hetu, ayam. paccayo, yena midhekacco

kaayassa

> > > bhedaa param. mara.naa muulagandhe adhivatthaanam. devaanam.
> > > sahabyatam. upapajjati.
> > >
> > > This last word, in one dictionary I have gives both meanings

of

> to
> > > be born AND to be RE-born.
> > >> The most damning evidence for the multiple life and rebirth
> theory would
> > seem to be the positive version of Dependent Origination, which
> shows
> > how the gradual path IS Dependent Orignation. Therefore "When

one

> sees
> > the Dhamma [process of liberation], one sees Dependent
> Origination" and
> > vice versa. See furthest left hand column of the following table
> > compared to other teaching of the Buddha [a study method he gave
> for his
> > teaching]:
> >

http://home.vicnet.net.au/~jousmith/buddhism/jo/d_o_compare.html.

> It is
> > no wonder that those that promote the gross/physiological or the
> > impractical psychological understanding of Dependent Origination
> do not
> > know of, or do not speak much of the positive version of D.O.
> >
> >