--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" <rjkjp1@...> wrote:

cut...

> Dear Jou,

Hi Robert

> yes thanks, currently in rude good health and spirits. I hope you
> are the same.

not sure about "rude" :-) I'm in good spirits, not so good health
atm, dealing with vipaaka from past kamma. :-)

> ===========In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Norman Joseph Smith"
> <josmith.1@...> wrote>
>
> > I appreciate you supplying that quote. I have come across quotes
> > like this before, e.g. D ii 196-7 = DN 17:
> >
> >
> > Now Aananda, you might think that King Mahaasudassana at that
time
> > was somebody else. But you whould not regard it so, for I was
King
> > Mahaasudassana then..."
> >
> > The problem I have with them is they would contradict the
Buddha's
> > teaching given so many times as the pracitce of Insight and
Right
> > View as not thinking "I am [any of the five clinging
aggregates]"
> > or "I am not [any of the five clinging aggregates]".
> >
> > As well as that it is not surprising to me, thinking the
> > physiological interpretaion of the three insight knowledges
> > [tevijjaa] is a later teaching, that these ideas are usually
found
> > in Nikaayan texts that most scholars take as later texts, i.e.
> > Anguttara and Diigha as opposed to Majjhima and Samyutta.
> > ==================
>
>
> there are two issues here: the most important being whether
> rebirth/past/future lives can be accomodated by the core teaching
of
> anatta.

It seems we agree that anattaa is a core teaching, but what the
teaching about anattaa might be, would be another issue.

I agree, if the five clinging aggregates are impermanent, then what
can be permanent enough to be RE-born [consciousness as Bhikkhu
Saati suggested and for which he was dressed down]. I suggest a
totally new set of five clinging aggregates arise [a new
identification/birth, e.g. I'm Buddhist], spurred on by continuing
impersonal causes [unwholesome habits of thought, word and deed,
passed on socially].

> The other is whether only the Vinaya and Majjhima and samyutta
> nikayas are valid (the rest of the Tipitika being corrupt).
> In this post I would like to look at the latter issue.

Well I think that is an oversimplification of what I said, or maybe
I didn't think carefully before speaking. :-)

I meant that MORE corrupted texts can be found in the Diigha and
Anguttara. I'm sure there would be some in the Majjhima and Samyutta
too.

> Jou,
> if your theory is that any references to rebirth and past/future
> lives could not be made by the Buddha,

It is.

> and that any suttas that suggest this must be of late origin,

No I don't think that. A portion of a sutta may be corrupted, not
necessarily the whole sutta.

> then by definition you will
> only find suttas that support your theory. It seems a flawed way
to
> evaluate the Tipitika?

yes, I agree.

I don't evaluate the Tipitaka simply like that. I have two phases
for that.

1. do the comparative study the Buddha seems to have given for his
teaching:

"... All you to whom I have taught these truths that I have realised
by super-knowledge should come together and recite them, setting
meaning beside meaning and expression beside expression, without
dissension, in order that this holy life may continue and be
established for a long time for the profit and happiness of the
many..." D 29 : D iii 127 [ooo from the Diigha!]

Though the texts then goes on to mention the 37 Wings of Awakening,
I have found that it is most benefically applied to the whole
teaching and that the mention of the 37 is probably a late addition.

2. Test the theory so obtained in experience following the advice in
the Kalaama Sutta. It basically says not to believe [or not] simply
because it is written in scripture, but to believe or not once one
has tested it.

I don't find the teaching of past or future lives, or rebirth helps
me deal with what is happening here and now. Rather it just
distracts my attention away from the here and now. It was only when
I gave that up and started looking for a more practical
interpreation of the Buddha's teaching that it came alive to me. :-)

> Anyway I have copies of the Majjhima and Samyutta and will see if
> there are any references to past/future lives.

cool

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