> -----Original Message-----
> From: rett [mailto:rett@...]
> Sent: Monday, 09 February, 2004 11:37 PM
> To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Pali] Right Speech

Hi All

I agree wholeheartedly with what Rett says below, pls see other
comments.

> >This is a strange argument you put forward. As laymen even if we
> >are maditating long hours day and night and attained stream entry as
> >well, we cannot taking on ourselves to make any critical remark
> >about the dhamma. That would show an essential lack of Saddha, or
> >confidence in the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha.
>
> Dear Charles and others,
>
> Some of the conflict may come from there being two meanings of the
> word 'critical'. In one sense it means to criticize something, and
> disparage it. In the other sense it means to constructively sift
> through evidence and draw careful conclusions.

And I see that is what the Buddha encouraged when he said "make a
thorough investigation", which the context shows would refer to the
external records of the teachings, not just internals - the four
foundations.

> I agree that a person
> with Saddha would never disparage the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. That
> would be a contradiction in terms. However a person with Saddha could
> very well study the texts in which the Dhamma is preserved for us,
> with a a critical attitude, in the second, positive, sense. This
> would be a way to try to sift the essential points from the less
> essential points.

Taking the unessential for the essential one would never arrive at the
essential [Dhammapada]

> Whether one is a monk or a layman makes no
> difference in this regard. In the same way a layman can be critical
> of monks who do not live up their responsibilities. It's even a duty
> of laymen to do so. But again, this would not be to disparage the
> Sangha as a whole, only to try to help uphold the ideals.
>
> To me, your post above conflates the two senses of critical, and also
> conflates the Three Gems with their worldy, and not always perfect
> representatives. The Ariyasangha is by definition perfect, but not
> every monk is perfect. The Dhamma is perfect, but not every text
> claiming to record the Dhamma is perfect. So for a person with strong
> faith, it could actually be an expression of their faith for them to
> be critical. They have an such strong and implicit faith in the three
> gems that there is no risk or harm in taking a critical look at their
> representatives.

In presenting right speech in accordance with Abhaya Sutta, MN 58, it
should be true, beneficial and either pleasant or unpleasant, but
knowing the right time for both.

One aspect of "true" would be indicated by this quote:

"If a person has a conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,'
safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion
that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' To this extent,
Bhaaradvaaja, there is the safeguarding of the truth. To this extent one
safeguards the truth. I describe this as the safeguarding of the truth,
but it is not yet an awakening to the truth" M 95 : M ii 171

Basically, one acknowledges in one's speech that one is talking about
one's beliefs or convictions. The various ways of doing that without
sounding boring become obvious to one, as one practices. Those who do
not want to test this teaching might say "of course what I say is my
belief", but why would one not want to test a teaching of the Buddha? As
for me, when I had resistance to this teaching, I later saw it was
laziness based on arrogance. "I don't want to do that, 'cause I know
that it would make no difference, so would be a waste of time and
energy." Without having tested it, one would not KNOW, one would only
BELIEVE "it would make no difference, so would be a waste of time and
energy", in my opinion. And that is exactly the result of not doing the
practice, one takes one's belief as truth and cannot listen to another
talking about their belief.

----------------------------------------------------
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Norman Joseph (Jou) Smith

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