Dear Jou,
I agree with all you say here. There is no person reborn from one
life to the next - just a flow of karmic energy which causes a
different set of aggregates to appear - not the same "person" but
only related through conditionality.

There is no good translation for the word in any language that
really gets that sense across, imo. So, whether one uses "is
reborn", "arises", or anything else in conventional language is
fairly moot, I think. Thanks for pointing it out, though. It's a
very important concept.

Metta,
John

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Norman Joseph [Jou] Smith"
<josmith.1@...> wrote:

> >
> > Kasmaa caaya.m, braahma.na, mohaggi pahaatabbo
> > parivajjetabbo, na sevitabbo? Muu.lho kho, braahma.na,
> > mohena abhibhuuto pariyaadinnacitto kaayena
> > duccarita.m carati, vaacaaya duccarita.m carati,
> > manasaa duccarita.m carati. So kaayena duccarita.m
> > caritvaa, vaacaaya duccarita.m caritvaa, manasaa
> > duccarita.m caritvaa kaayassa bhedaa para.m mara.naa
> > apaaya.m duggati.m vinipaata.m niraya.m upapajjati.
> > Tasmaaya.m mohaggi pahaatabbo parivajjetabbo, na
> > sevitabbo. Ime kho tayo, braahma.na, aggii pahaatabbaa
> > parivajjetabbaa, na sevitabbaa."
>
> > "And, Brahmins, what is this
> > fire of delusion that should be renounced, avoided, and not
> > taken upon oneself. Indeed, Brahmins, a deluded person,
> > overcome by delusion, with the mind completely taken over by
> > delusion, behaves badly in body, speech, and mind.
> > Having behaved badly in body, speech, and mind, at the
> > breaking up of the body and then death, he is reborn
>
> Translation problem:
> A popular mistransaltion imo and a similar one is bhava as rebirth.
> "Upapajjati" would not be translated, but rather interpreted as
> "RE-born" [lit. punna-pajjati, right?]. Anyone have a more accurate
> translation?
>
> Leading to a doctrinal problem:
> If one understands the five clinging aggregates as one's

conditioned

> self [with the three characteristics, impermanent, stress and not

soul],

> then how could one think one could be RE-born/born again? One

would have

> to think one continues, remains unchanged, to be "born again". {you
> might know the later texts simile about candles} I am not saying

here

> that nothing would carry on, just that that which would carry on -

in

> sam.saara - would be impersonal, a process [my translation of

dhamma]

> {just like a flame}, that could be transferred between different
> individuals {different candles}. Using the simile, the flame would

be

> greed, hatred and delusion [or clinging]. It seems this is how the
> process ans simile could be best compared:
>
> Burning candle -> unlit candle
> [clinging] being [both satta and bhava e.g. in dependent arising] -
>
> [simiply] living
> Five clinging aggregates -> five aggregates
> Unenlightened experience -> enlightened experience
>
> As I understand it, the Buddha said his teaching was subtle. He

spoke of

> many births [jaati] in reference to the past habitations that he

was

> recalling in the first of the tevijjaa, so many previous BIRTHS. I

have

> not found the Buddha to speak of many previous lives = past lives

(pubbe

> jiivaa). I would say each birth would be of a different set of five
> clinging-aggregates [linked by an unwholesome process -

akusaladhamma

> which has the three characteristics of impermanence, stress and
> not-soul].
>
> First of the tevijjaa M i 22 = M 4
>
> So evam. samaahite citte parisuddhe pariyodaate anan.ga.ne
> vigatuupakkilese mudubhuute kammaniye .thite aaneñjappatte
> pubbenivaasaanussatiñaa.naaya cittam. abhininnaamesim.. So

anekavihitam.

> pubbenivaasam. anussaraami, seyyathidam.– ekampi jaatim. dvepi

jaatiyo

> tissopi jaatiyo catassopi jaatiyo pañcapi jaatiyo dasapi jaatiyo
> viisampi jaatiyo tim.sampi jaatiyo cattaaliisampi jaatiyo paññaa

sampi

> jaatiyo jaatisatampi jaatisahassampi jaatisatasahassampi anekepi
> sam.va.t.takappe anekepi viva.t.takappe anekepi sam.va.t.taviva
> .t.takappe– `amutraasim. evam.naamo evam.gotto evam.va.n.no

evamaahaaro

> evam.sukhadukkhappa.tisam.vedii evamaayupariyanto, so tato cuto

amutra

> udapaadim.; tatraapaasim. evam.naamo evam.gotto evam.va.n.no

evamaahaaro

> evam.sukhadukkhappa.tisam.vedii evamaayupari yanto, so tato cuto
> idhuupapanno'ti. Iti saakaaram. sa-uddesam. anekavihitam.

pubbenivaasam.

> anussaraami. Ayam. kho me, braahma.na, rattiyaa pa.thame yaame

pa.thamaa

> vijjaa adhigataa, avijjaa vihataa vijjaa uppannaa, tamo vihato

aaloko

> uppanno, yathaa tam. appamattassa aataapino pahitattassa viharato.
>
> There would seem at least two ways of looking at it:
>
> Birth is physical therefore past births would be about past lives.
> Birth is psychological therefore past births could be about past
> dukkha-experiences IN THIS VERY LIFE.
>
> It seems to me that the second way is more inline with the Buddha's
> teaching and other [psychological] definitions/slants he gave to

terms

> such as loka = is found in this fathom long body with its

perceptions

> and feelings.
>
> > in a state of woe, in a realm of misery, in great
> > ruin, in hell. Therefore this fire of delusion is to
> > be renounced, and avoided, and not taken upon
> > oneself."
> > (A.N. 7.5.4. Dutiya-aggisutta.m)
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> Promotion of my book, The Gift Of the Buddha, with a foreword by

HHDL:

> http://www.bigfoot.com/~josmith.1/tgotb
> E-group on my book, get a free older copy:
> http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/ttbt
> E-group on 4 Chinese Aagmas compared with 4 Paali Nikaayaa:
> http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/monkey_magic
>
> Wishing peace and good health to you and those close to you
> from Norman Joseph (Jou) Smith
> E-mail/MSN: josmith.1@...
> Yahoo: josmith_1_2000
> ICQ: 183459
> More ways to contact me online: http://wwp.icq.com/183459
> Secondary Email: s351543@... or josmith_1_2000@...
> Home or V-mail: +61 (0)500523778 usually checked daily for messages
> Mobile: +61 (0)421 542 653 notified immediately of messages
> S-mail: PO Box 95 Toowong BC Queensland 4066 Australia
> URI: http://www.bigfoot.com/~josmith.1
>
> Please sign the online petition:
> http://www.ipetitions.com/campaigns/irene_fernandez
>
> Use http://www.trillian.cc to integrate yahoo, icq, and msn (and

others)

> and be online with all of them at the same time.
>
> Use http://www.mailwasher.net/download.php to bounce spam back to

the

> sender.