> -----Original Message-----
> From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@...]
> Sent: Thursday, 22 January, 2004 4:01 AM
> To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Pali] Buddhaghosa
>
>
> Dear Rett,

Hi All

Hope you are well and happy.

> op 20-01-2004 10:12 schreef rett op rett@...:
> >
> >Nina said: you can fare safely with Buddhaghosa!
> >
> Rett:
> > It is important to be careful even with Buddhaghosa. There
> are places
> > where his interpretation is clearly wrong. That is not to
> diminish the
> > great value of his commentaries.

> N: I am glad you see the great value.
> I have some thoughts about this: some people have lost
> contact with the Abhidhamma,

And some with the sutta and vinaya.

> and when Buddhaghosa explains or
> implies the Abhidhamma,this may be misunderstood. When I say
> Abhidhamma I do not mean a textbook to be memorized, but the
> Abhidhamma alive, to be verified and as a guide for awareness
> in daily life. And also: Abhidhamma is closely connected with
> the Suttanta, and Vinaya. I have not read many co in Pali,
> some in English and Thai. I read in Pali and translated the
> whole Co to the Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, and here I could not
> possibly find anything wrong or contradictory to the
> Suttanta, on the contrary, most helpful.

You seem to start from the commentaries and work back, whereas I start
from the words ascribed to the Buddha himself that are generally not
doubted by objective scholars.

What do you think of:
1. the warning ascribed to the Buddha that listening to words of
disciples is a cause for loss of the teaching:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn20-007.html
2. the study method he seems to have given for his teaching: "... all
you to whom I have taught these truths that I have realised by
super-knowledge should come together and recite them, setting meaning
beside meaning and expression beside expression, without dissension, in
order that this holy life may continue and be established for a long
time for the profit and happiness of the many ..." Paali: Long
Discourses of the Buddha number (DN) 29 : PTS D iii 127 : Chinese: DA 17
and this example of it:
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~jousmith/buddhism/jo/d_o_compare.html?
3. trying to find the definitions the Buddha gave to terms he used and
applying those definitons consistantly to his teaching, in effect,
letting him interpret his teaching for us.
4. The commentaries would seem to have us believe the Buddha meant
different things in different circumstances when he said, e.g. upekkhaa.
This would seems to mean that he had a secret teaching, which I believe
he denied.

> But there are
> Abhidhamma passages which may be misunderstood by some
> people. Actually, without Yong Peng asking me I would not
> have translated this line by line from the beginning, but it
> proved quite an experience to me. Take alone the beginning
> with many similes (the Buddha as a swan, tiger, moon, etc).
> People may not appreciate this. But all the time we should
> return to the time of the ancient teachers:

= pure theravaada

> what was their
> intention, what is the essence they explained?

Hehehe. One of your shoulds. Well here is mine: But all the time we
should return to the time of the Buddha: what was his intention, what is
the essence he explained?

> Here is
> explained what we find in many
> suttas: expression of confidence and devotion that is the
> fruit of a deep understanding of the teachings.

Yes the teachings of the Buddha, not the commentators, imo.

> Such as we
> read in Chapter XI 55. Sotaapattisamyutta Connected
> Discourses on Stream Entry (Transl by Bhikkhu
> Bodhi):
> 2 (2) Grounded
> "Bhikkhus, a noble disciple who possesses four things is a
> stream- enterer, no longer bound to the nether world, fixed
> in destiny, with enlightenment as his destination. [n. 322]
> "What four? Here, bhikkhus, a noble disciple possesses
> confirmed

Very different from the usual translation I have found of "unshakable".
If it is confirmed, who confirms it?

> confidence in the Buddha thus: "The Blessed One is
> an arahant, perfectly enlightened, accomplished in true
> knowledge and conduct, fortunate, knower of the world,
> unsurpassed leader of persons to be tamed, teacher of devas

Could mean, gods/deities or rulers.

> and humans, the Enlightened One, the Blessed One.' I think
> when people do not immediately understand a Co phrase, they
> may think that the Co is wrong, but why is the fault with the
> Co? When they look again they see that there was no problem,
> as you just noticed for yourself in this short phrase you
> quoted. We can discover that the Co explanation is very clear
> and to the point. When we then go back to the Sutta, which we
> should do all the time, we see that the message of the Sutta
> stands out much more clearly.

Yes, as I said, you seem to start from the commentaries and work back!

I have such unshakable faith in the Buddha and believe he does not need
any help to teach me, so stupid as I might be.

> Here is not the place for a long debate that could go on
> endlessly. See Dhamma Study Group in the archives under
> Buddhaghosa! Let us enjoy Kaccayaana and other texts, we have
> our hands full. Nina.

You can choose to enjoy what you wish. I have my hands full with texts
ascribed directly to the Buddha and since it is his teaching I wish to
benefit from, then I choose to enjoy those texts. I hope your choices
bring you at least as much benefit as mine have me.

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