> -----Original Message-----
> From: John Kelly [mailto:palistudent@...]
> Sent: Saturday, 31 January, 2004 2:13 AM
> To: Pali
> Subject: [Pali] Pali - Every few days - [B136]
>
>
> Pali - Every few days - [B136]
> Gair/Karunatillake - Chapter 7 Further Readings
> Ex. 1 (Part 4 of 4)
>
> Kasmaa caaya.m, braahma.na, mohaggi pahaatabbo
> parivajjetabbo, na sevitabbo? Muu.lho kho, braahma.na,
> mohena abhibhuuto pariyaadinnacitto kaayena
> duccarita.m carati, vaacaaya duccarita.m carati,
> manasaa duccarita.m carati. So kaayena duccarita.m
> caritvaa, vaacaaya duccarita.m caritvaa, manasaa
> duccarita.m caritvaa kaayassa bhedaa para.m mara.naa
> apaaya.m duggati.m vinipaata.m niraya.m upapajjati.
> Tasmaaya.m mohaggi pahaatabbo parivajjetabbo, na
> sevitabbo. Ime kho tayo, braahma.na, aggii pahaatabbaa
> parivajjetabbaa, na sevitabbaa.
> And, Brahmins, what is this
> fire of delusion that should be renounced, avoided, and not
> taken upon oneself. Indeed, Brahmins, a deluded person,
> overcome by delusion, with the mind completely taken over by
> delusion, behaves badly in body, speech, and mind.
> Having behaved badly in body, speech, and mind, at the
> breaking up of the body and then death, he is reborn
Translation problem:
A popular mistransaltion imo and a similar one is bhava as rebirth.
"Upapajjati" would not be translated, but rather interpreted as
"RE-born" [lit. punna-pajjati, right?]. Anyone have a more accurate
translation?
Leading to a doctrinal problem:
If one understands the five clinging aggregates as one's conditioned
self [with the three characteristics, impermanent, stress and not soul],
then how could one think one could be RE-born/born again? One would have
to think one continues, remains unchanged, to be "born again". {you
might know the later texts simile about candles} I am not saying here
that nothing would carry on, just that that which would carry on - in
sam.saara - would be impersonal, a process [my translation of dhamma]
{just like a flame}, that could be transferred between different
individuals {different candles}. Using the simile, the flame would be
greed, hatred and delusion [or clinging]. It seems this is how the
process ans simile could be best compared:
Burning candle -> unlit candle
[clinging] being [both satta and bhava e.g. in dependent arising] ->
[simiply] living
Five clinging aggregates -> five aggregates
Unenlightened experience -> enlightened experience
As I understand it, the Buddha said his teaching was subtle. He spoke of
many births [jaati] in reference to the past habitations that he was
recalling in the first of the tevijjaa, so many previous BIRTHS. I have
not found the Buddha to speak of many previous lives = past lives (pubbe
jiivaa). I would say each birth would be of a different set of five
clinging-aggregates [linked by an unwholesome process - akusaladhamma
which has the three characteristics of impermanence, stress and
not-soul].
First of the tevijjaa M i 22 = M 4
So evam. samaahite citte parisuddhe pariyodaate anan.ga.ne
vigatuupakkilese mudubhuute kammaniye .thite aaneñjappatte
pubbenivaasaanussatiñaa.naaya cittam. abhininnaamesim.. So anekavihitam.
pubbenivaasam. anussaraami, seyyathidam. ekampi jaatim. dvepi jaatiyo
tissopi jaatiyo catassopi jaatiyo pañcapi jaatiyo dasapi jaatiyo
viisampi jaatiyo tim.sampi jaatiyo cattaaliisampi jaatiyo paññaa sampi
jaatiyo jaatisatampi jaatisahassampi jaatisatasahassampi anekepi
sam.va.t.takappe anekepi viva.t.takappe anekepi sam.va.t.taviva
.t.takappe amutraasim. evam.naamo evam.gotto evam.va.n.no evamaahaaro
evam.sukhadukkhappa.tisam.vedii evamaayupariyanto, so tato cuto amutra
udapaadim.; tatraapaasim. evam.naamo evam.gotto evam.va.n.no evamaahaaro
evam.sukhadukkhappa.tisam.vedii evamaayupari yanto, so tato cuto
idhuupapannoti. Iti saakaaram. sa-uddesam. anekavihitam. pubbenivaasam.
anussaraami. Ayam. kho me, braahma.na, rattiyaa pa.thame yaame pa.thamaa
vijjaa adhigataa, avijjaa vihataa vijjaa uppannaa, tamo vihato aaloko
uppanno, yathaa tam. appamattassa aataapino pahitattassa viharato.
There would seem at least two ways of looking at it:
Birth is physical therefore past births would be about past lives.
Birth is psychological therefore past births could be about past
dukkha-experiences IN THIS VERY LIFE.
It seems to me that the second way is more inline with the Buddha's
teaching and other [psychological] definitions/slants he gave to terms
such as loka = is found in this fathom long body with its perceptions
and feelings.
> in a state of woe, in a realm of misery, in great
> ruin, in hell. Therefore this fire of delusion is to
> be renounced, and avoided, and not taken upon
> oneself.
> (A.N. 7.5.4. Dutiya-aggisutta.m)
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