vittakka means a cross wit and vicaara is a problem rendering for quiet long

societe_bouddhiste_gotama <societe_bouddhiste_gotama@...> wrote:In the recent French translation of the Visuddhimagga (which, in
fact, is the best one, surpassing a lot the English translation of
Nanamoli), Christian Maës transaltes vittakka and vicaara as "prise-
ferme" (firm-grip) and "application-soutenue" (sustained-
application) and thus does not make any reference to the thinking-
process.

Hope this helps,
with metta,
Ivan

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, macdocaz1@... wrote:
> A critic of the translation of the Pali terms 'vitakka'
and 'vicára'
>
> I have been studying the Pali canon in English translation as a
means of
> providing canonical support for my subjective contemplative
experiences. Through
> this study I have come across a few key areas that seem like
errors in
> translation. The Pali terms 'vitakka' and 'vicára' are two of
those words that seem
> to be incorrectly translated. I have appended to this post a copy
of a
> definition for the Pali words 'vitakka' and 'vicára' from
NYANATILOKA's, Manual of
> Buddhist Terms and Doctrines.
>
> There you will find NYANATILOKA translates 'vitakka' and 'vicára'
as
> "thought-conception and discursive thinking', (or 'applied and
sustained thought')."
> I do not believe the historic Buddha was intending that one arrive
at jhana
> through an intellectual activity, but one of subjective
investigation through
> meditation, therefore not as a process of thinking and reasoning.
>
> I believe it must be an erroneous translation of the Pali words
> "vitakka-vicára" to say that through an intellectual pursuit, such
as "applied and
> sustained thought" the Buddha said one can arrive at jhana. On
the Jhana Support
> Group, we have found no evidence to support a belief
that "intellectual
> investigation," or "applied and sustained thought," or "thought-
conception and
> discursive thinking" will ever lead anywhere other than ignorance
delusion and doubt
> (dukkha).
>
> I believe vitakka and vicára, if they lead to jhana, must be
better
> translated as 'concentration' in which one "turns and returns
one's mind," or "applies
> and reapplies" one's attention to one's meditation object. It is
however
> possible that the Pali language might be inadequate to make the
distinction
> between concentration and discursive thinking.
>
> Thank-you very much for your time. If you care to discuss this
further,
> then please respond to me either here, or directly off-list, or on
the Jhana
> Support Group.
>
> Kindest regards,
>
> Jeff Brooks
>
> Jhana Support Group
> A support group for ecstatic contemplatives
> website http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Jhanas/
> Subscribe: Jhanas-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> From the Buddhist Dictionary
> Manual of Buddhist Terms and Doctrines,
> by NYANATILOKA
> http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/u_v/vitakka_vicaara.htm
>
> vitakka-vicára
>
> 'thought-conception and discursive thinking', (or 'applied and
sustained
> thought') are verbal functions (vací-sankhára: s. sankhára) of the
mind, the
> so-called 'inner speech ('parole interieure'). They are
constituents of the 1st
> absorption (s. jhána), but absent in the higher absorptions.
>
> (1) "Thought-conception (vitakka) is the laying hold of a thought,
giving it
> attention. Its characteristic consists in fixing the consciousness
to the
> object.
>
> (2) "Discursive thinking (vicára) is the roaming about and moving
to and fro
> of the mind.... It manifests itself as continued activity of mind"
(Vis.M. IV).
>
> (1) is compared with the striking against a bell, (2) with its
resounding;
> (1) with the seizing of a pot, (2) with wiping it. (Cf. Vis . IV.).




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