Dear Dimitry,
We have to know that if one listen to dhamma and atttain fruition instanly doesn't mean he is sukkhavipasaka .As mention in theragatha com for a arahant emerge from 4 th jhana while listening to buddha .
Sukkhavipasaka can attain any jhana and nirodhasamapatti after they have fruition as mention in Abhi.vibhavini if they want
Sukkhavipasakaarahanto also means any arahant who have fruition but emerge from any jhana ,formless jhana,but they have only dibbacakkhu but not recollecting of former lives or vive versa ,they are not up to the tevijjaarahanto level.This will means a same word for pakati arahant
Again who can be sukkhavipassaka( the without jhana one )is the big problem
.




"Dimitry A. Ivakhnenko (������� ���������� ���������)" <koleso@...> wrote:
Dear Robert,

r> Could we clarify this. Am I right in reading that you now accept that
r> the sukkhavipassaka is without mundane jhana?

The connection of distinction between lokiya and lokuttara jhanas and
the discussed passage in Visuddhimagga is somewhat hypothetical. So it
seems that this passage is ambiguous and may the elders' point of view.

I accept that in the works of Ven. Buddhaghosa and subcommentaries
'sukkhavipassaka' is one who does not develop jhana, but only kha.nikasamaadhi:

Mahavagga-Tika 2.152

Sukkhavipassakoti samathabhaavanaasinehaabhaavena sukkhaa luukhaa,
asiniddhaa vaa vipassanaa etassaati sukkhavipassako.

Duka-Tika-Catukkanipata-Tika Mya: 2.43

Pa~n~naaya vimuttoti samathasannissayena vinaa aggamaggapa~n~naaya
vimutto. Tenaaha "sukkhavipassakakhii.naasavo"ti.

Theragatha-Atthakatha 3.208

Ye pana kha.nikasamaadhimatte .thatvaa vipassana.m pa.t.thapetvaa
adhigata-aggamaggaa, te aadito antarantaraa ca samaadhijena
jhaana'ngena vipassanaabbhantara.m pa.tisandhaanaana.m abhaavaa
sukkhaa vipassanaa etesanti sukkhavipassakaa naama.

Yet this is a purely commentarial term. When describing one who is
released through wisdom Buddha clearly told about jhana. So the
question of how this term relates to suttas remains open.

At least it seems that this term is sometimes used as an excuse for
non-practice of jhana, whereas Buddha repeatedly urged to develop
jhana. Moreover, in Dutiya-Agaarava sutta (AN 3.15)

"so vata, bhikkhave, bhikkhu agaaravo appatisso asabhaagavuttiko
'sabrahmacaariisu aabhisamaacaarika.m dhamma.m paripuuressatii'ti
neta.m .thaana.m vijjati. 'aabhisamaacaarika.m dhamma.m
aparipuuretvaa sekha.m dhamma.m paripuuressatii'ti neta.m .thaana.m
vijjati. 'sekha.m dhamma.m aparipuuretvaa siilakkhandha.m
paripuuressatii'ti neta.m .thaana.m vijjati. 'siilakkhandha.m
aparipuuretvaa samaadhikkhandha.m paripuuressatii'ti neta.m .thaana.m
vijjati. 'samaadhikkhandha.m aparipuuretvaa pa~n~naakkhandha.m
paripuuressatii'ti neta.m .thaana.m vijjati.

it is said that the full development of wisdom is impossible without
the development of samadhi. Jhana factors are deeply imbedded in the
factors of Awakening. So one following the Buddha's words would better
practice jhanas as the inherent eight's limb of the Noble Eightfold
Path.

Another question is what is jhana, some non-perception trance of
narrowed attention or something better, yet it is another story for
another discussion.

Dimitry




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