---
Dear Dimitry,
So far I think this discussion has been worthwhile in that we now
agree that the ancient commentaries and tikas recognised that there
were arahants without mundane jhana - namely sukkhavipassaka.
Relating this to the suttas there are hundreds if not thousands of
suttas where the Buddha taught the way of insight into the khandhas
(aggregates) ayatanas(sense fields) and dhatus (elements).

He taught different suttas depending on the accumulations of the
listener. The Visuddhimagga: "In some instances this path of
purification is taught by insight alone,[ie. without jhana] according
as it is said:
`Formations are all impermanent:
`When he sees thus with understanding
`And turns away from what is ill,
`That is the path to purity' (Dh. 277).
And in some instances by jhana and understanding according as it is
said:
`He is near unto nibbana
`In whom are jhana and understanding' (Dh. 372). *endquote


When we talk about right concentration again we have to know there
are two main types of right concentration (samma-samadhi)
http://www.abhidhamma.org/an4-41.html
" Monks, these are the four developments of concentration. Which
four? There is the development of concentration that, when developed
& pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. There is
the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued,
leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. There is the
development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to
mindfulness & alertness. There is the development of concentration
that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents."

And what is the last type:
"" And what is the development of concentration that, when developed
& pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case
where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference
to the five aggregates for sustenance/clinging: 'Such is form, such
its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its
origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its
origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their
origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its
origination, such its disappearance.' This is the development of
concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of
the effluents.""

This is the same type of concentration that eventually both sukkha-
vipassaka and jhana-labhi must develop.
When the texts talk about meditation, jhaya, it is useful to
know that there are two types.
The Dhammapada 371 :"Meditate, o bhikkhu and be not heedless."
The atthakatha says "o bhikkhus meditate by the two kinds of
meditative absorptions"
And the tika notes that this is twofold in "the sense of
meditative absorption that arises depending on an object and
meditative absorption that arises dependent on characteristics"
The tika later explains this by saying that the first is (p506
note 6 of carter and palihawadana) "the eight attainments
(mundane jhanas) to be obtained by training the mind in concentrating
on
one of the thirty eight objects such as kasina [or metta, or
Buddha or Dhamma or breath etc] and the second means 'insight
wisdom, path and fruit'..to be obtained by reflecting on the
three characteristics'"endquote

Also found in several places in majjhima commentary it says "Meditate
(upanijjhaayatha) on the 38 objects (aaramma.na) with the meditation
(upanijjhaana) on an object and on aggregates, bases, etc. according
to
anicca, etc. with the meditation on a characteristic (lakkha.na)."

So here jhana is given the usual meaning of the 8 mundane attainments
and also another type of jhana/samdhi related to experiencing the
three chracteristics (anicca , dukkha, anatta). The sukkhavipassaka
develops this type of samma -samadhi.
RobertK



Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Dimitry A. Ivakhnenko (Äìèòðèé Àëåêñååâè÷
Èâàõíåíêî)" <koleso@...> wrote:

> Dear Robert,
>
> r> Could we clarify this. Am I right in reading that you now accept

that

> r> the sukkhavipassaka is without mundane jhana?
>
> The connection of distinction between lokiya and lokuttara jhanas

and

> the discussed passage in Visuddhimagga is somewhat hypothetical. So

it

> seems that this passage is ambiguous and may the elders' point of

view.

>
> I accept that in the works of Ven. Buddhaghosa and subcommentaries
> 'sukkhavipassaka' is one who does not develop jhana, but only

kha.nikasamaadhi:

>
> Mahavagga-Tika 2.152
>
> Sukkhavipassakoti samathabhaavanaasinehaabhaavena sukkhaa luukhaa,
> asiniddhaa vaa vipassanaa etassaati sukkhavipassako.
>
> Duka-Tika-Catukkanipata-Tika Mya: 2.43
>
> Pa~n~naaya vimuttoti samathasannissayena vinaa aggamaggapa~n~naaya
> vimutto. Tenaaha "sukkhavipassakakhii.naasavo"ti.
>
> Theragatha-Atthakatha 3.208
>
> Ye pana kha.nikasamaadhimatte .thatvaa vipassana.m pa.t.thapetvaa
> adhigata-aggamaggaa, te aadito antarantaraa ca samaadhijena
> jhaana'ngena vipassanaabbhantara.m pa.tisandhaanaana.m abhaavaa
> sukkhaa vipassanaa etesanti sukkhavipassakaa naama.
>
> Yet this is a purely commentarial term. When describing one who is
> released through wisdom Buddha clearly told about jhana. So the
> question of how this term relates to suttas remains open.
>
> At least it seems that this term is sometimes used as an excuse for
> non-practice of jhana, whereas Buddha repeatedly urged to develop
> jhana. Moreover, in Dutiya-Agaarava sutta (AN 3.15)
>
> "so vata, bhikkhave, bhikkhu agaaravo appatisso asabhaagavuttiko
> 'sabrahmacaariisu aabhisamaacaarika.m dhamma.m paripuuressatii'ti
> neta.m .thaana.m vijjati. 'aabhisamaacaarika.m dhamma.m
> aparipuuretvaa sekha.m dhamma.m paripuuressatii'ti neta.m .thaana.m
> vijjati. 'sekha.m dhamma.m aparipuuretvaa siilakkhandha.m
> paripuuressatii'ti neta.m .thaana.m vijjati. 'siilakkhandha.m
> aparipuuretvaa samaadhikkhandha.m paripuuressatii'ti

neta.m .thaana.m

> vijjati. 'samaadhikkhandha.m aparipuuretvaa pa~n~naakkhandha.m
> paripuuressatii'ti neta.m .thaana.m vijjati.
>
> it is said that the full development of wisdom is impossible without
> the development of samadhi. Jhana factors are deeply imbedded in the
> factors of Awakening. So one following the Buddha's words would

better

> practice jhanas as the inherent eight's limb of the Noble Eightfold
> Path.
>
> Another question is what is jhana, some non-perception trance of
> narrowed attention or something better, yet it is another story for
> another discussion.
>
> Dimitry