--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Dimitry A. Ivakhnenko (Äìèòðèé
Àëåêñååâè÷ Èâàõíåíêî)" <koleso@...> wrote:

> Dear Robert,
>
> Thank you for the article.
>
> r> The possibility of attaining the supramundane path without

possession

> r> of a mundane jhana has been questioned by some Theravada

scholars,

> r> but the Visuddhimagga clearly admits this possibility when it
> r> distinguishes between the path arisen in a dry-insight mediator

and

> r> the path arisen in one who possesses a jhana but does not use it

as a

> r> basis for insight (Vism.666-67; PP.779).
>
> That's a wrong conclusion.
>
> Visuddhimagga 666-667 (XXI, 112) tells:
>
> "To deal with these [three theories] in order: According to the
> governance by insight, the path arisen in a bare-insight (dry-

insight)

> worker, and the path arisen in one who possesses a jhana attainment
> but who has not made the jhana the basis for insight, and the path
> made to arise by comprehending unrelated formations after using the
> first jhana as the basis for insight, are paths of the first jhana
> only."
>
> Here Ven. Buddhaghosa clearly says that all these three paths are of
> the first jhana.
> ________

Dear Dimitry,
I read that a little differently from yourself. The first one, the
dry-insight worker, has not attained mundane first jhana. But it is
true that all path moments are considered to be jhana (during magga
and phala cittas) and so at the moment of experiencing nibbana the
factor of samma-samadhi is powerful.
For the dry-insight worker there is samadhi even before nibbana but
it is khanika, momentary. It is different from the development of
samathabhavana.
From the visuddhimagga tika:
http://www.abhidhamma.org/visuddhimagga-1.htm
note3 The words "insight alone" are meant to exclude, not virtue,
etc., but serenity (i.e. Jhana), which is the opposite number in the
pair, serenity and insight. This is for emphasis. But the
word "alone" actually excludes only that concentration with
distinction [of jhana]; for concentration is classed as both access
and absorption (see Ch. IV, §32). Taking this stanza as the teaching
for one whose vehicle is insight does not imply that there is no
concentration; for no insight comes about without momentary
concentration. And again, insight should be understood as the three
contemplations of impermanence, pain, and not-self; not contemplation
of impermanence alone' (Pm. 9-10).
RobertK

> r> Textual evidence that there
> r> can be arahats lacking mundane jhana is provided by the Susima

Sutta

> r> (S.ii, 199-23) together with is commentaries. When the monks in

the

> r> sutta are asked how they can be arahats without possessing
> r> supernormal powers of the immaterial attainments, they

reply: "We are

> r> liberated by wisdom" (pannavimutta kho mayam). The commentary

glosses

> r> this reply thus: "We are contemplatives, dry-insight meditators,
> r> liberated by wisdom alone" (Mayam nijjhanaka sukkhavipassaka
> r> pannamatten'eva vimutta ti, SA.ii,117). The commentary also

states

> r> that the Buddha gave his long disquisition on insight in the
> r> sutta "to show the arising of knowledge even without

concentration"

> r> (vina pi samadhimevam nanuppattidassanattham, SA.ii,117). The
> r> subcommentary establishes the point by explaining "even without
> r> concentration" to mean "even without concentration previously
> r> accomplished reaching the mark of serenity"

(samathalakkhanappattam

> r> purimasiddhamvina pi samadhin ti), adding that this is said in
> r> reference to one who makes insight his vehicle (ST.ii,125). "
>
> This argument is quite circumferential and inconclusive.
>
> There's quite straightforward commentary to Kitagiri sutta

describing

> sukkhavipassaka as one who attained rupa jhanas:
>
> Pa~n~naavimuttoti pa~n~naaya vimutto. So sukkhavipassako, catuuhi
> jhaanehi vu.t.thaaya arahatta.m pattaa cattaaro caati imesa.m vasena
> pa~ncavidhova hoti. Paa.li panettha

a.t.thavimokkhapa.tikkhepavaseneva

> aagataa. Yathaaha- "na heva kho a.t.tha vimokkhe kaayena phusitvaa
> viharati, pa~n~naaya cassa disvaa aasavaa parikkhii.naa honti. Aya.m
> vuccati puggalo pa~n~naavimutto"ti.
>
> Dimitry