----- Original Message -----
From: Rodney Yasushi Horikawa <ryhorikawa@...>
To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, September 24, 2003 6:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: chanting


> Mahalo nui loa (thank you very much) Big Mike!

Ho'omaika'i on finding the Paali list, Hoaloha Yasu-sama--there are some
akamai folks here even though I'm not one...

> Your very informed and well
> articulated response was very much appreciated. After I sent in my first
> posting, I scrolled down a bit and read that post wonderful written post
> from Nina? that you attached. I immediately thought "whoops" - I should
> have waited until I read more! :-).

What the heck?

> I don't have much to contribute - Just some elementary questions :-). And
> probably ones that are rehashes of stuff already covered.

Excellent--I personally always find these useful.

> Aloha pumehana,
> Rodney

Back at you (I think!), Rodney,

mikala

p.s. Are you interested in the theravaada (and especially) abhidhamma? Try
dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com

> At 06:02 AM 9/24/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> >Hi Rodney,
> >
> >And welcome--
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: ryhorikawa <ryhorikawa@...>
> >To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
> >Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 8:55 PM
> >Subject: [Pali] Re: chanting
> >
> >
> > > Aloha Mai Kakou Folks - Sorry for jumping into this in medias
> > > res. I'm brand new to this listserv :-)
> >
> >Very glad to meet you--sorry I'm ignorant of Hawaiian!
> >
> > > On this topic, wouldn't the fact that 1) the suttas were composed
> > > in metrical form (which unfortunately is lost in translation and 2)
> > > the suttas were -in the beginning- not "read" but orally
> > > transmitted by bhanakas indicate that the Dharma was - to some
> > > extent -"chanted" or "sung" ?
> >
> >Yes, this seems quite clear to me, too, from the vinaya (not to mention
the
> >existence of the word 'bhaa.naka'). chanting was clearly approved but
> >singing disapproved. One of my favorite characters from the vinaya,
Dabba
> >the Mallian (a seven-year-old arahanta), is assigning viharas:
> >
> >"...For those monks who knew the Suttantas he assigned lodgings in the
same
> >place, thinking: "These will be able to chant over the Suttantas to one
> >another..."*
> >
> >Culavagga IV, p. 99 (PTS)
> >
> >This following was posted recently but is maybe pertinent enough to
repost:
> >
> >Bhikkhus, there are these five dangers when Dhamma is chanted with a
long,
> >singing sound:
> >
> >He is pleased with himself regarding that sound, (= pride)
> >
> >Others are pleased regarding that sound (they have regard for it but not
for
> >Dhamma)
> >
> >Householders look down upon him (as music is for those who enjoy
> >sense-pleasures)
> >
> >While trying for accuracy of sound his concentration is broken, (he
neglects
> >the meaning of what he is chanting)
> >
> >People coming after fall into views (by emulation) ("saying: Our teachers
> >and preceptors sang it thus" [Commentary] -- a source of both pride and
> >quarreling among later generations of Buddhists).
> >
> >-- Vinaya Pitaka, ii. 108 (from ATI)
> >
> >Looking forward to your correspondence.
> >
> >mike
> >
> >*Very interestingly, to me, this continues further on: "...For those
monks
> >who were talkers on inferior matters and who were athletic he assigned
> >lodgings at the same place, thinking: "These reverend ones will live
> >according to their pleasure..."
> >
> >
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> Rodney Yasushi Horikawa
> University of Wisconsin-Madison
> Community Building Coordinator
> Campus Community Partnerships Team
> 1552 University Ave.
> Madison, WI 53726
> 608-263-4536
> ryhorikawa@...
>
> "Power can really be understood only in the context of resistance."
> - Michel Foucault
>
> "There is no such thing as a neutral educational process. Education either
> functions as an instrument which is used to facilitate the integration of
> the younger generation into the logic of the present system and bring
about
> conformity to it, or it becomes the practice of freedom...the means by
> which men and women deal critically and creatively with the reality and
> discover how to participate in the transformation of their world."
> - Paulo Freire
>
> "Never let school get in the way of your education."
> - sign hanging in the Fairbanks, Alaska office of Dennakkanaaga
(an
> agency dedicated to collecting oral stories from Athabascan
Elders)
>
> "Those who have been required to memorize the world as it is will never
> create the world as it might be"
> - Judith Groch
>
> "What appears to coming at you, is really coming from you"
> - old saying from India
>
> "Power at its best is love implementing
> the demands of justice. Justice at its
> best is love correcting everything that
> stands against love."
> - Martin Luther King, Jr.