Dear Nina & friends,

If Geiger is like Newton, then we have Einstein--but then again, who would
stand on Einstein's shoulders?

I try not to give "final" answers as there is so much more learn from the
Suttas themselves with or without the Commentaries and Buddhaghosa.

Sukhi

Piya

----- Original Message -----
From: "nina van gorkom" <nilo@...>
To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 12:09 PM
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [Pali]Pali and Sanskrit for Dhamma terms.


Dear Dimitry, Piya and friends,
The article of Geiger quoted by Dimitri makes a lot of sense to me. It also
mentions Buddhaghosa's interpretation. And Buddhaghosa edited and translated
into Pali very ancient commentaries which he did not change. Once or twice
he gave his own opinion and mentioned this expressively. Thus, it is not
Buddhaghosa's own opinion but stems from the beginning time of the sasana.
Piya, I first heard about the rule concerning Sanskrit from a Thai or in
Thailand, I can't remember. Since karma and nirvana are more widely used by
the general public, it is understandable that it is in dictionaries. But
here it concerns rules for monks, and the whole issue stems from deep,
sincere concern for the preservation of the teachings.
There is another point about chanting and pronunciation: the Buddha tells
the monks how not to chant, with long drawn out voices, etc. (I do not
remember in which sutta, or in the Vinaya). There are also certain rules
about the pronunciation of Pali at the ordination of monks. If it is not
correct the ordination is not valid.
The Siam Society Journal (is it on line?) under the patronage of his Majesty
the King of Thailand, made historical studies about monks in olden times and
it was mentioned that centuries ago, even twice, a group of Thai monks went
to Sri Lanka to be reordained, because the pronunciation of the Pali of the
rituals was not correct in Thailand and then the ordination was not valid. I
would not know myself how to find out the correct pronunciation, I do not
know much about these issues. Or is it the chanting? A monk I knew who has
now passed away was also reordained in Sri Lanka for this reason. When
traveling I saw how he greeted another monk whom he had known before very
humbly as a junior monk. This story may seem strange, but I think there must
be reasons behind it. He must have considered this very seriously, having
known him as very conscientious, very concerned about the purity of the
Vinaya and the teachings.
Nina.

op 08-09-2003 09:52 schreef Dimitry A. Ivakhnenko (Äìèòðèé Àëåêñååâè÷
Èâàõíåíêî) op koleso@...: from Geiger's article:
. Rhys Davids and Oldenberg
> translate this passage by 'I allow you, oh brethren, to learn the
> words of the Buddha each in his own dialect.' This interpretation
> however is not in harmony with that of Buddhaghosa, according to whom
> it has to be translated by "I ordain the words of Buddha to be learnt
> in _his_ own language (i.e.Magadhi, the language used by Buddha
> himself)." After repeated examination of this passage I have come to
> the conclusion that we have to stick to the explanation given by
> Buddhaghosa. Neither the two monks or the Buddha himself could have
> thought of preaching in different cases in different dialects. Here
> the question is merely whether the words of Buddha migth be translated
> into Sanskrit or not. This is however clearly forbidden by the Master,
> at first negatively and then positively by the injunction beginning
> with 'anujaanaami'. The real meaning of this injunction is, as is
> also best in consonance with Indian spirit, that there can be no other
> form of the words of Buddha than in which the Master himself had
> preched. Thus even in the life-time of Buddha people were concerned
> about the way in which the teaching might be handed down as accurately
> as possible, both in form and in content. How much more must have been
> the anxiety of the disciples after his death! The external form was
> however Magadhi, thought according to tradition it is Pali."
>



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