Dear Nina,

I thought I recalled you saying that you were familiar with some of
Mr. Smith's work. Perhaps you could direct us to some examples?

Thanks,
Paul O Cuana

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" <suanluzaw@...> wrote:
>
>
> Dear Jou Smith
>
> How are you?
>
> You wrote:
>
> "I have done that within the suttas and found some are corrupted, I
> have done that with other texts and found MOST are corrupted. So
now
> I focus on the suttas."
>
> I wonder if you could reproduce those areas of suttas or other
texts
> which you found to be corrupted.
>
> I would like to check them if they are indeed as you found.
>
> Thanking in advance.
>
> With regards,
>
> Suan Lu Zaw
>
>
> http://www.bodhiology.org
>
>
>
>
> --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Jou Smith" <josmith.1@...> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nina van Gorkom" <nilo@...>
> To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 5:18 AM
> Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: Tipitaka and Commentaries
>
> Dear Jou,
>
> Jou: Hi Nina
>
> I completely agree with what you say:
> <The Buddha taught us to lay teachings that are claimed to be his
> beside
> the
> > teachings in the Dhamma/Vinaya and compare meaning with meaning. >
> Yes, we have to keep on comparing the Vinaya, the Suttanta and the
> Abhidhamma, these three.
>
> Jou: Well we don't agree completely. I don't accept the Abhidhamma
as
> the word of the Buddha, but rather as a later text, which may have
> some
> words of the Buddha, or may not. Why do you include the Abhidhamma
> along
> with the Dhamma/Vinaya since the prefix Abhi- itself points to some
> secret teaching which the Buddha said he was not about.
>
> And then there are the Commentaries, our great Commentator
> Buddhaghosa.
> The more I read of him, the Visuddhimagga included, the more I
> appreciate. While reading one can see how much his writings help.
> Historical arguments won't help to convince others, but reading it
> ourselves.
>
> Jou: The Buddha would seem to have had a historical approach as
well
> as
> an experiential approach. He was inclusive of all things that
helped.
>
> I cannot get enough of reading in the Commentaries about the
dhaatus,
> the khandhas, the aayatanas. No contradictions with the Tipitaka,
>
> Jou: Well that is a nice position to take. It totally does not
address
> the contradictions within the Tipitaka.
>
> the commentaries are very necessary for the understanding of the
> Tipitaka.
>
> Jou: so you say. I have not needed them, but then if we discussed
our
> different understandings you might well judge mine to be wrong
because
> it does not agree with the commentaries. I take the position that
the
> Buddha was the unsurpassable guide to those who wish guidance. As
such
> he would not need the help of the commentaries. I also believe that
he
> taught the Dhamma that was timeless and empirical. So we would not
> need
> modern interpreters. Of course we might need translators, but as I
see
> it there is a lot of interpretation in the commentaries and that is
> what
> I see is dangerous - relying on the interpretation of others. If the
> Dhamma is empirical we can test it for ourselves, in our own
> experience.
>
> Also the Pa.tisambhidhaamagga I highly value: like the
Visuddhimagga
> all
> the stages of vipassana are explained here. The whole book is about
> the
> development of pa~n~naa. I am not a scholar, just a beginning
student.
>
> Jou: The Buddha taught us not to identify with the five aggregates
as
> I,
> me (mine in some texts) or myself. Identifying yourself as "not a
> scholar, just a beginning student" is one of those subtle fetters,
> maana. It is one of the ways Maara fools us into thinking we are
being
> humble, but keeps us in the realm of birth and death thru the
process
> of
> identification with the five aggregates.
>
> But I am delighted to read even a few lines of Commentary and next
to
> it
> subcommentary in Pali, even stumbling along. By reading the Pali I
> find
> one can prove to oneself the value of the Commentaries for the
> understanding of the Suttas.
>
> Jou: Do as you think is fit. I personally give preference to the
words
> of the Buddha. After all I am interested in HIS teaching, not that
of
> the commentators and I would not assume that the commentators got it
> right. I notice you do not say "I am delighted to read even a few
> lines
> of the Buddha's words".
>
> Today I was reading part of the Co to the Satipatthana sutta: this
is
> first Ven. Soma's translation: <"In this world." In just this body.
> Here
> the body [kaya] is the world [loka], in the sense of a thing
> crumbling.
> As covetousness and grief are abandoned in feeling, consciousness,
and
> mental objects, too, the Vibhanga says: "Even the five aggregates of
> clinging are the world.">
>
> N:It crumbles away: lujjanapalujjana.t.thena, in the sense of
> crumbling
> away. I remember Samyutta Nikaaya, Salaayatanavagga, Kindred
Sayings
> on
> Sense, Ch 3, §82: The world. It crumbles away. What crumbles away:
the
> eye... objects... eye-consciousness... We see, that the Co
completely
> agrees with the Sutta, and contains valuable reminders of the Truth,
> even a few lines.
>
> Jou: I do not deny that there may be things in the commentary that
> completely agree with the Sutta. I just have proven to myself that,
> if I
> am interested in the Buddha's teaching, it is safer to read what is
> ascribed to him (already a secondary text), which would already have
> been corrupted over time since it is part of a saasana, which gets
> corrupted over time (even though the Dhamma does not), rather than
> rely
> on a tertiary text which gets it's understanding from the corrupted
> secondary text and seemingly would accept any corruption as the
> Buddha's
> teaching, since it does not point out any corruptions. The Buddha
> gave a
> specific method to identify corruptions, but few know of or apply
it.
>
> Very meaningful: when the whole is taken apart by pa~n~naa,
dissolved
> into elements, realities can be seen as they are. As you also know
> there
> is a word association between lujjati and loko. We can begin now:
> whatever appears can be object of awareness. That is satipatthana.
And
> my question is always: how do the Tipitaka and the commentaries
help
> me
> to understand the dhamma appearing at this moment? Thus, as you
> stressed
> before, in the last instance we have to decide for ourselves what is
> true. As you so rightly say: <So it involves taking the
> > Buddha as the Teacher and avoids reliance on others (Take
yourself
> as
> > a refuge, take the Process -Dhamma- as a refuge).>
> Nina.
> op 20-11-2002 22:30 schreef Jou Smith op josmith.1@...:
> > The Buddha taught us to lay teachings that are claimed to be his
> > beside the teachings in the Dhamma/Vinaya and compare meaning with
> meaning.
>
> I have done that within the suttas and found some are corrupted, I
> have
> done that with other texts and found MOST are corrupted. So now I
> focus
> on the suttas.
>
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> Wishing peace and good health to you and those close to you from
> Norman
> Joseph (Jou) Smith
> ICQ: 183459
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