Dear Jou,
Although you are busy with your writings you took time off to answer me,
which I appreciate. See below.
op 07-04-2003 13:59 schreef Jou Smith op josmith.1@...:

> Jou: Well we don't agree completely. I don't accept the Abhidhamma as
> the word of the Buddha, but rather as a later text, which may have some
> words of the Buddha, or may not. Why do you include the Abhidhamma along
> with the Dhamma/Vinaya since the prefix Abhi- itself points to some
> secret teaching which the Buddha said he was not about.

N: We had many discussions on dhamma study group, dsg@yahoogroups.com about
the Abh, the commentaries, their sources, their value. It is too long for
this list where we are so busy with sutta texts. If you like to see the
archives, under Abhidhamma or U.P. (Useful Posts) you can have some idea of
what we discuss. We try to see the discussions as agreeable disagreements if
people do not agree.
Jou:
(N)< the commentaries are very necessary for the understanding of the

> Tipitaka.>
>
> Jou: so you say. I have not needed them, but then if we discussed our
> different understandings you might well judge mine to be wrong because
> it does not agree with the commentaries.

N: Your approach is different, and you have done good scholarly work,
studying older and newer forms of language. Linguistics is a hobby of mine.
When we see more modern forms of language it does not mean that the contents
are not stemming from the oldest tradition.
A simple example: you stated that originally there were only two refuges, if
I understood you well. This does not mean that we do not pay respect to the
Triple Gem, don't we?

Jou: I take the position that the

> Buddha was the unsurpassable guide to those who wish guidance. As such
> he would not need the help of the commentaries. I also believe that he
> taught the Dhamma that was timeless and empirical. So we would not need
> modern interpreters. Of course we might need translators, but as I see
> it there is a lot of interpretation in the commentaries and that is what
> I see is dangerous - relying on the interpretation of others. If the
> Dhamma is empirical we can test it for ourselves, in our own experience.

N: I agree only with the last sentence.
Buddhaghosa used very old commentaries: the Mahaa-Atthakathaa, the
Mahaa-paccarii and the Kuru.n.di, stemming from the time of the Thera
Mahinda. He said that he did not add his own opinion, except in a few cases,
which he expressively mentioned.
Jou: (N)< I am not a scholar, just a beginning student.>
The Buddha taught us not to identify with the five aggregates as I,

> me (mine in some texts) or myself. Identifying yourself as "not a
> scholar, just a beginning student" is one of those subtle fetters,
> maana. It is one of the ways Maara fools us into thinking we are being
> humble, but keeps us in the realm of birth and death thru the process of
> identification with the five aggregates.

N: You are right, conceit is one of the last defilements to go, at
arahatship. We puthujjanas are full of it. When we think with dosa:"How can
he do that to me", it conditions immediately conceit, arising with
lobha-mula-citta. We attach to the importance of self, don't we? And this is
what I mean by Abhidhamma put into practice.
When I say, I am only a student, many kinds of cittas can motivate this,
kusala cittas in alternation with akusala cittas, cittas are so fast,
arising because of their own conditions. I like the word student, indicating
that I am learning, beginning to develop understanding of dhammas. I am not
a guru.

> Jou: I notice you do not say "I am delighted to read even a few lines
> of the Buddha's words".

N: Here I can refer to my correspondance with John (around 5, 6 April).
Trying to memorize parts of the wonderful Sutta texts he gives us. See <Pali
every few days>.
Jou: The Buddha gave a

> specific method to identify corruptions, but few know of or apply it.

.....> I have done that within the suttas and found some are corrupted, I
have

> done that with other texts and found MOST are corrupted. So now I focus
> on the suttas.

N: you have done a thorough literary study, I am really interested (but I am
not a web- goer). However, we do not agree about what corruption is.
If you have time, I would appreciate you joining dsg. In fact, I shall
forward our discussion to dsg. On dsg list we also use Pali texts, although
not everyone is interested in Pali.
I also forwarded some of John's sutta texts to dsg, elaborating on them
(mentioning that it comes from this Pali yahoo list, of course). People
appreciate them. We try to apply them also in times of distress.
Appreciating,
Nina.