----- Original Message -----
From: "Nina van Gorkom" <nilo@...>
To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 22, 2002 5:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: Tipitaka and Commentaries
Dear Jou,
Jou: Hi Nina
I completely agree with what you say:
<The Buddha taught us to lay teachings that are claimed to be his beside
the
> teachings in the Dhamma/Vinaya and compare meaning with meaning. >
Yes, we have to keep on comparing the Vinaya, the Suttanta and the
Abhidhamma, these three.
Jou: Well we don't agree completely. I don't accept the Abhidhamma as
the word of the Buddha, but rather as a later text, which may have some
words of the Buddha, or may not. Why do you include the Abhidhamma along
with the Dhamma/Vinaya since the prefix Abhi- itself points to some
secret teaching which the Buddha said he was not about.
And then there are the Commentaries, our great Commentator Buddhaghosa.
The more I read of him, the Visuddhimagga included, the more I
appreciate. While reading one can see how much his writings help.
Historical arguments won't help to convince others, but reading it
ourselves.
Jou: The Buddha would seem to have had a historical approach as well as
an experiential approach. He was inclusive of all things that helped.
I cannot get enough of reading in the Commentaries about the dhaatus,
the khandhas, the aayatanas. No contradictions with the Tipitaka,
Jou: Well that is a nice position to take. It totally does not address
the contradictions within the Tipitaka.
the commentaries are very necessary for the understanding of the
Tipitaka.
Jou: so you say. I have not needed them, but then if we discussed our
different understandings you might well judge mine to be wrong because
it does not agree with the commentaries. I take the position that the
Buddha was the unsurpassable guide to those who wish guidance. As such
he would not need the help of the commentaries. I also believe that he
taught the Dhamma that was timeless and empirical. So we would not need
modern interpreters. Of course we might need translators, but as I see
it there is a lot of interpretation in the commentaries and that is what
I see is dangerous - relying on the interpretation of others. If the
Dhamma is empirical we can test it for ourselves, in our own experience.
Also the Pa.tisambhidhaamagga I highly value: like the Visuddhimagga all
the stages of vipassana are explained here. The whole book is about the
development of pa~n~naa. I am not a scholar, just a beginning student.
Jou: The Buddha taught us not to identify with the five aggregates as I,
me (mine in some texts) or myself. Identifying yourself as "not a
scholar, just a beginning student" is one of those subtle fetters,
maana. It is one of the ways Maara fools us into thinking we are being
humble, but keeps us in the realm of birth and death thru the process of
identification with the five aggregates.
But I am delighted to read even a few lines of Commentary and next to it
subcommentary in Pali, even stumbling along. By reading the Pali I find
one can prove to oneself the value of the Commentaries for the
understanding of the Suttas.
Jou: Do as you think is fit. I personally give preference to the words
of the Buddha. After all I am interested in HIS teaching, not that of
the commentators and I would not assume that the commentators got it
right. I notice you do not say "I am delighted to read even a few lines
of the Buddha's words".
Today I was reading part of the Co to the Satipatthana sutta: this is
first Ven. Soma's translation: <"In this world." In just this body. Here
the body [kaya] is the world [loka], in the sense of a thing crumbling.
As covetousness and grief are abandoned in feeling, consciousness, and
mental objects, too, the Vibhanga says: "Even the five aggregates of
clinging are the world.">
N:It crumbles away: lujjanapalujjana.t.thena, in the sense of crumbling
away. I remember Samyutta Nikaaya, Salaayatanavagga, Kindred Sayings on
Sense, Ch 3, ยง82: The world. It crumbles away. What crumbles away: the
eye... objects... eye-consciousness... We see, that the Co completely
agrees with the Sutta, and contains valuable reminders of the Truth,
even a few lines.
Jou: I do not deny that there may be things in the commentary that
completely agree with the Sutta. I just have proven to myself that, if I
am interested in the Buddha's teaching, it is safer to read what is
ascribed to him (already a secondary text), which would already have
been corrupted over time since it is part of a saasana, which gets
corrupted over time (even though the Dhamma does not), rather than rely
on a tertiary text which gets it's understanding from the corrupted
secondary text and seemingly would accept any corruption as the Buddha's
teaching, since it does not point out any corruptions. The Buddha gave a
specific method to identify corruptions, but few know of or apply it.
Very meaningful: when the whole is taken apart by pa~n~naa, dissolved
into elements, realities can be seen as they are. As you also know there
is a word association between lujjati and loko. We can begin now:
whatever appears can be object of awareness. That is satipatthana. And
my question is always: how do the Tipitaka and the commentaries help me
to understand the dhamma appearing at this moment? Thus, as you stressed
before, in the last instance we have to decide for ourselves what is
true. As you so rightly say: <So it involves taking the
> Buddha as the Teacher and avoids reliance on others (Take yourself as
> a refuge, take the Process -Dhamma- as a refuge).>
Nina.
op 20-11-2002 22:30 schreef Jou Smith op josmith.1@...:
> The Buddha taught us to lay teachings that are claimed to be his
> beside the teachings in the Dhamma/Vinaya and compare meaning with
meaning.
I have done that within the suttas and found some are corrupted, I have
done that with other texts and found MOST are corrupted. So now I focus
on the suttas.
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Joseph (Jou) Smith
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