Hi Derek and all,

op 03-04-2003 21:38 schreef Derek Cameron op derekacameron@...:about
vitakka and vicaara.

N:You may find it helpful to read the Visuddhimagga, Ch III and IV. It makes
very good reading anyway.This part is on Rob K's web:
http://www.abhidhamma.org/

It is described that vitakka is still needed in the first jhana, it is
accompanying the jhanacitta and it hits or strikes the meditation subject
again and again. Vicara causes the citta to be occupied with the medtation
subject. These two factors are among the jhanafactors which have to be
cultivated and they perform their functions also in access concentration and
in attainment concentration, when jhanacitta arises. Now here we should not
think of <thinking> as we use the word in conventional language. When the
yogaavacaara develops the meditation subject, for example a kasina, he has
to look at it first, and then he acquirs a mental image. When calm is
developed and he attains jhana he experiences the meditation subject with
absorption. He does not think of the kasina, but the cetasikas vitakka and
vicara that accompany the jhanacitta are performing their functions. In the
second jhana (of the fourfold system) these factors are no longer needed in
order to experience the meditation subject. There is a greater calm so that
vitakka and vicara are abandoned. Also in samatha (not only in vipassana)
great pa~n~naa is needed so that the different jhanafactors can be
discerned. This is most difficult, because vitakka and vicara are very
close.
But, by the way, Derek, you know, I am missing your suttas. But I
understand it if it is difficult to find time.
Nina.