Hi, John,

> The pali that you have translated as "deliberation"
> and "reasoned reflection" is "vitakka" and "vicara".
> Sometimes these are also translated as "applied and
> sustained thought". My understanding of these terms,
> at least in connection with the jhanas is "applied and
> sustained attention", that is, on the meditation
> object that one uses as the pathway to access
> concentration leading to jhana.

Interesting ... we were just discussing the jhanas on another list I
belong to.

> In a highly
> concentrated state, there doesn't seem to be a place
> for deliberation and reasoned reflection.

> Any other thoughts on this?

My theory about this is that we are looking at two words whose
meanings changed over time.

According to the PED, they both originally meant kinds of
thinking ... hence the translations as "deliberation" and "reasoned
reflection."

But in the Buddhist texts they have the specific technical meanings
of "applying the mind to an object," and then "the mental activity
that takes place around that object."

So, translating them as "deliberation and reasoned reflection" in a
Buddhist context is to confuse an earlier, general meaning with a
later, technical meaning -- hence the puzzling results.

PED online link:

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html

Derek.