Dear Nina,

Thanks for you carefully researched response which I will study carefully.

Kobkhun khrab & Sukhi.

P.

----- Original Message -----
From: "nina van gorkom" <nilo@...>
To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, 02 March, 2003 11:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Pali] Vitakka Santhana Sutta


> Dear Piya,
>
> op 01-03-2003 03:25 schreef Piya Tan op libris@...:
> >
> > Has anyone any insight or thought on the best translation of
> > vitakka,sa.nkhaara,sa.n.thaana in the Vitakka,san.t.haana Sutta here?
> >
> > [My provisional translation:]
> > If, monks, while a monk is not minding and is disregarding those
thoughts,
> > there still arises in him evil unskillful thoughts connected with
desire,
> > hate and delusion arise in him, then should turn his mind to the
stilling
> > of the thought-formation (vitakka,sa.nkhaara,santhaana) [by examining
the
> > causal sequence] of those evil unskillful thoughts. (M 1:120,18-19)
>
> Nina: santhaana, also spelled sa.n.thaana: P.E.D.p. 671, this sutta is
> mentioned:
> configuration, position, composition, nature, shape, form.
> Now to the Co (in Thai):
> <As to the analysis of sa.nkhaara: he should consider his "sa.n.thaana
> sa"nkhaara", that is, whatever reality (sabhaava, nature) conditions
> (prungteng: prepare, condition or accumulate) that cause (hetu), that
> reality is sa"nkhaara.
> It is explained that this is the condition (paccaya), cause of action,
> kaarana, root (muula).
> As to the analysis of sa.n.thaana: where it is well established (thi tang
ju
> di), where it is located. The sa.n.thaana of vitakka sa"nkhaara is called
> "vitakka sa.nkhaara sa.n.thaana". The bhikkhu should consider that vitakka
> sa.nkhaara. The Buddha explained that the bhikkhu should consider what is
> the cause and what is not the cause of his thoughts: what is the cause,
the
> condition of this thought, for which reason does it arise.>
> Sa.nkhaara has different meanings in different contexts, and here we have
to
> think of sa.nkhaarakkhandha, the cetasikas (mental factors) which are
> called formations, activities etc. They form up conditions, they are
> accumulated and accumulate. Vitakka is one of them.
> The translation: P.T.S. has: the monk should attend to the thought
function
> and form of those thoughts.
> The Co explains further on the attitude of the wise (pa.n.dito) as to
> walking quickly, slowly, etc: when a thought arises, it is compared to
> walking quickly, when the bhikkhu attends to the "traveling" (thiaw paj)
of
> that thought it is like walking slowly. When he has attended to the
> traveling of that thought he fixes his thought on the meditation subject.
> When he has developed vipassana and he attains arahatship, this is
compared
> to the sitting down of a person. The fruition attainment of the bhikkhu,
> with nibbana as object during a whole day is compared to the person who
lies
> down.
> Citta, with vitakka, travels all the time, it frequents different objects
> through the six doorways.
> The Commentary begins with adhicitta, explaining this word mentioned in
the
> sutta: the citta of the eight attainments (of jhaana), that has as
> foundation vipassana. Vipassana is implied all along, as in all suttas.
The
> monk does not have to reason about it that his traveling thoughts have
> conditions, he can just realize them there and then as vitakka sa'nkhaara,
> realities conditioned by former accumulations, non-self. As I see it, even
> when, as we read further on, he suppresses them with teeth clenched, he
can
> realize that this is also conditioned, such are his accumulations,
> sa.nkhaara.(This is my opinion)
> The Commentary is long but very impressive, many similes. What is also
> stressed, the monk should be with his teacher, study the Dhamma, ask
> questions, listen to Dhamma on due occasions, and analyse which dhamma is
> .thaana (the right cause) and which dhamma is a.thaana. In this way moha
can
> be abandoned, the Commentary states. As I see it, these are the right
> conditions for vipassana.
> I cannot advise on the best translations, but I hope the Commentary has
> helped you somewhat to clarify the meaning of terms,
> Nina.
>
>
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