Dear Khael and Frank,
KJ> The sphere of neither-apperception nor no-
KJ> apperception, purges the labeling created by either
KJ> apperception or non apperception, leaving nothing to
KJ> be cognized, and no disturbation on base of the mind
KJ> forming labels and subsequent processes, never the
KJ> less perception remains, that which is connected to
KJ> the six internal and external media sense bases.
Thank you, Khael, for the clear and logical explanation of
Cula-Su~n~nata sutta. The final test is in the practice :)
KJ> Perception (as used lines above) would be interlaced
KJ> with contact and the six sense media salayatana;
KJ> Apperception as fabrication;
KJ> Consciousness as consciousness and feelingin the
KJ> dependent coarising .
I would propose the map:
http://users.i.com.ua/~sangha/dharma/lib/paticca.pdf
(in Russian
http://users.i.com.ua/~sangha/dharma/lib/paticca.htm )
There perception is around 'phassa',
Apperception is 'sa~n~naa',
Fabrications include bodily ones (overlapping with salayatana, except
'mano'), mental ones (the same as 'nama'), and verbal ones (vittakka and
vicara).
Determinations are 'sa'nkhaara' as part of the 'naama'.
Consciousness is 'vi~n~naa.na'.
Feelings are 'vedanaa'.
FK> a) In some sutta passages, it says somethign to the
FK> effect of :
FK> "dependent on consciousness, name and form arise."
FK> and then:
FK> "dependent on name and form, consciousness arises"
Yes, 'vi~n~naa.na' gives rise to 'phassa', and thus to 'naama', which
is intermingled with 'ruupa', as 'mano' and sense organs in 'salaayatanaa'.
Dependent on the internal and external 'salaayatanaa' (intermingled
'naama' and 'ruupa'), there arises 'vi~n~naa.na'.
FK> c) another sutta passage says in the dependent
FK> origination formula, "with contact as condition,
FK> perception (sanna?) , thinking, mental
FK> proliferation..."
That's Digha Nikaya 15 (see the branch in the rightmost part of the
diagram).
FK> 1) (this is why I'm learning bits of pali to try to
FK> resolve questions like this) is vinnana, citta, mano
FK> the same, different, sometimes, always?
They are different. Yet they are sometimes explained one by another,
and sometimes used interchangeably in 'non-technical', 'popular
explanation' contexts.
FK> 2) is the consciousness in the 12 links of dependent
FK> origination the same as the consciousness that arises
FK> at the 6 sense doors when sensory organ meets sensory
FK> object?
Yes. It is clearly seen on the sketch diagram mentioned above.
FK> Khael is suggesting that perception/sanna is lower
FK> level than consciousness, but sutta reference (b)
FK> suggests to me that consciousness is more low level,
FK> and perception/sanna adds some comparison to memory
FK> and subjectivity.
I agree that 'vi~n~naa.na' is lower level and does not label.
It is 'sa~n~naa' which labels 'this is yellow, this is blue, this is
red', giving rise to 'vohaara' (designation).
KJ> The input of the taste, i.e. sweet, having been
KJ> perceived and codified, is now cognized as, for this
KJ> example, sweet, this implies that the information has
KJ> being received from the sense bases media, codified,
KJ> in terms of name and form, and understood (in a
KJ> worldly sense)
Codification und understanding belong rather to the 'sa~n~naa' with
consequent 'vitakka'.
FK> But the other sutta passage where
FK> both consciousness and perception seem to be going
FK> through a process of discrimination (comparison with
FK> memory),
Well, the sutta does not mention discrimination or comparison with
memory. It uses labels 'sour', 'sweet', because it's impossible
otherwise to describe something without labels.
Metta, Dimitry