op 12-01-2003 11:54 schreef Piya Tan op libris@...:

Dear Piya Tan, I just have some remarks, concerning the discussion I find
very interesting.

> 5. page 11, footnote 45: "Vineyya, this means that the five hindrances have
> to be abandoned prior to practising satipaÂÂhana."

>Piya Tan: As stated, this is not correct. Satipatthana practice clearly starts

out as

> a method of training for beginners. The hindrances are traditionally (and
> logically, and necessarily abandoned prior to the entrance to the first
> jhana, and jhana practice is not encountered in the satipatthana until one
> encounters the fourth of the satipatthanas (and it is there, also, that one
> first encounters the hindrances). Something like this might be said: The
> hindrances must be abandoned before the Satipatthanas can be brought to
> perfection.
> What is said is that one sits down putting away the coveting and dejection
> (here displeasure) for the world. What is being spoken of in the
> Satipatthana (indeed in the whole of the Dhamma) is a process. One sits down
> with the intent of... The instruction is: "How does one so live in a body,
> etc...that one abandons. Clearly a method is being described, not an
> accomplished state.
> Finally, putting away the hindrances prior to practicing the satipatthana is
> impossible, it is precisely practicing the satipatthana that is the method
> for putting away the hindrances. This is why it comes before Samma Samadhi.
> "The full development of Samma Satipatthana brings, as a matter of course,
> the development of Samma Samadhi."

________________________________________
Nina: There are two kinds of abandoning: we read in the Commentary to the
Satipatthanasutta:
vineyya loke abhijjhaadomanassanti vutta.m. Tattha vineyyaati
tada'ngavinayena vaa vikkhambanavinayena vaa vinayitvaa.

vikkhambanavinaya is the abandoning in subduing by way of jhaana, and
tada'ngavinaya is the abandoning by way of the development of vipassana,
abandoning by the opposites.
I see it in this way, that the anapanasati sutta is directed towards highly
gifted monks, who could attain jhana, use jhana as base for vipassana and
then attain arahatship.
As you rightly say, in the development of vipassana the tadanga pahaana is
a whole process.
As to your words, <The hindrances are traditionally (and

> logically, and necessarily abandoned prior to the entrance to the first
> jhana, and jhana practice is not encountered in the satipatthana until one
> encounters the fourth of the satipatthanas (and it is there, also, that one
> first encounters the hindrances). Something like this might be said: The
> hindrances must be abandoned before the Satipatthanas can be brought to
> perfection.>

Nina: It is true that the hindrances are subdued and then suppressed by the
jhana factors. It is just your last sentence I may have not understood
rightly:<The

> hindrances must be abandoned before the Satipatthanas can be brought to
> perfection.> and also: "The full development of Samma Satipatthana brings, as

a matter of course,
the development of Samma Samadhi."

As I see it, the Satipatthanas include all phenomena which can be objects of
awareness and right understanding. Also the hindrances. If we are not aware
of akusala we shall continue to take them for self. Do you see any
indication in the teachings that there is a specific order of development? I
see the order of the four satipatthanas more as desana naya. I feel that
there is no need to wait for the dhammanupassanaa satipatthaana, since it
all depends on what object appears to sati and pa~n~naa at a given moment.
As to sammasamadhi, this is a factor of the eightfold Path that goes
together with the other factors, it is IMO not developed separately. What
degree of calm, it may be of the degree of jhana or not, depends on the
person who develops the Path. We all have different inclinations, different
accumulations.

I quote from a post on anapana sati sutta I wrote some time ago for dsg
yahoo:
In the word commentary to the above quoted sutta the Visuddhimagga (VIII,
223-226) mentions with regard to the first tetrad (group of four clauses,
marked I-IV) of the sutta the different stages of insight-knowledge which
are developed after emerging from jhåna. We read Vis. VIII, 223-226:
< On emerging from the attainment he sees that the in-breaths and
out-breaths have the physical body and the mind as their origin; and that
just as, when a blacksmith¹s bellows are being blown, the wind moves owing
to the bag and to the man¹s appropriate effort, so too, in-breaths and
out-breaths are due to the body and the mind.

Next he defines the in-breaths and out-breaths and the body as materiality,
and the consciousness and the states associated with the consciousness as
the immaterial...
Having defined nama-rupa in this way, he seeks its condition...>

The Visuddhimagga then mentions all the different stages of insight
(Visuddhimagga VIII, 223 -225). We then read:
<After he has thus reached the four noble paths in due succession and has
become established in the fruition of arahatship, he at last attains to the
nineteen kinds of ³Reviewing Knowledge², and he becomes fit to receive the
highest gifts from the world with its deities.>
The first tetrad refers to contemplation of body, and the other three
tetrads refer respectively to the contemplation of feelings in feelings,
citta in citta, dhammas in dhammas. The Visuddhimagga explains that the
first three tetrads deal with calm and insight and the fourth deals with
insight alone.

I quote from the Commentary, I read in Thai:
<In the Papancasudani, the Co to the Anapanasati sutta, there is more
explanation on rupas which should be objects of awareness after the
meditator has emerged from jhana.
As we read at the end of the first tetrad, <I say, monks, that of bodies,
this is one, that is to say breathing-in and breathing-out...>The Commentary
explains, this is a certain body, kåya~n~natara: <We speak of a certain body
among the four bodies beginning with the Earth body (N: the four Great
Elements of Earth or solidity, Water or cohesion, Fire or temperature and
Wind or motion). We say that breath is a body. Further, the twentyfive
classes of rupa, namely, the sense-base of visible object (ruupaayatana)....
nutriment, are called the physical body, ruupakaaya (N:different from the
mental body). Of these, breathing is ³a certain body² because it is included
in tangible object base (pho.t.tabbaayatana). ³That is why²: because he
contemplates the body of wind (vaayokaaya, motion or pressure) among the
four bodies (N: the four Great Elements), or he sees breath as one body
among the twentyfive rupas which are the physical body, ruupakaaya.
Therefore he contemplates and sees the body in the body, is the meaning.>
N: Breath is rupa, and it can be understood as such when it appears through
the bodysense, at the nosetip or upperlip. It can appear as solidity or
motion or temperature. It can be known as only rupa, not my breath, as
non-self. >
Nina.