Dear Rob,
Buddhaghosa get the idea from Asubha and sasankhara sutta in AN 4 patipada vagga wherby jhana sukha will be helpful to those emerge from it.See the sutta first.It is not com idea but buddha .
See page 309 easier/time saving, pg 229 nowhere in tipitaka said that jhana attainer will be easier /quaiker in Nyanuttara book. All these has been rejected by Ledi sayadaw in his dipani.I was asked by a nun why ledi and mahasi contradicted each other.ledi said sukavipasaka are only for people with high wisdom .(This is a bit hard to accept because it will mean sariputa is a sukavipasa).
You must read kassapa samyutta last sutta where not been able to attain eight jhana/effort are among the reasons for the sasana to decline.This is the prediction for us because jhana is not directly from buddha but insigh is.Think about this sutta com but we do not have tika on it.
the nava(ship is jhana) help very much to carry us to cross the sea(samsara)but without it we have to swim .No dout some can swim across the sea but a kilamati(exhausted )way.In the end of sasana We need to
use the easier way since our chance are so slim,how can we try the harder way.
The teaching i heard from a sinhala monk is there are ariya now but it is only for anyone with eight jhana (though not idhhi )because our nivarana are too srong. without samapatti it is not possible.I believe it.This include vipasayanika because they are people who have jhana but not emerge from it but follow after insight.
Netti gave opposite thing from petakopadesa .The order are wrong because the manuscript are wrong with the tika in different order.

----- Original Message -----
From: "rjkjp1 <rjkjp1@...>" <rjkjp1@...>
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 19:59:47 -0000
To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Pali] Re: anenjasapaya sutta com

> --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Ong Teng Kee" <ongtk@...> wrote:
> > dear Rob,
> > You have misunderstood buddhaghosa because you didn't read this
> sutta com.If he said sukavipasaka is a harder way to nibbana but
> samathayanika with jhana as a ship(sampan) to cross the sea will be
> easier,how can it be in the end of sasana everyone will try attain
> nibbana in the harder way since our parami will be poorer,we need
> even more jhana to be easier compare to those sariputta etc.It can
> sure that sukavipasaka mean arahant without iddhi ,devine eyes when
> we talk about end of sasana , they are emerge from first jhana,second
> jhana though not from formless.The word kilamati has no comment in
> the tika but maybe in anguttara old tika by dhammapala(missing)
> __________
>
> Dear Teng kee,
> When Buddhaghosa says that sukkavipassaka is harder doesn't he mean
> that it is a dry way - not moistened by the dew of the jhanas?
> The Netti-pakarana (587)
> "Tattha Bhagava tikkhindriyassa samatham upadassati, majjhindriyassa
> Bhagava samathavipassanam upadissati, mudindriyassa Bhagava
> vipassanam upadassati.
> Herein the Blessed one teaches samatha to one of keen faculties;
> The blessed one teaches samatha and insight to one of medium
> faculties and the blessed one teaches insight [alone] to one of
> blunt
> faculties."
>
> In this late stage of the sasana isn't almost everyone one of the
> mudindriyasaa(blunt facultied)
>
> I believe only the very wise ones with great accumulations could
> master jhana and use it as the base for insight. (Being able to
> attain access concentration or even one of the jhanas doesn't count
> as mastery).
>
>
> > Anyway i think at this moment sukavipasaka has two meanings in com
> but vipasanayanika are not the same with both of them because
> sudhavipasanayanika are momentary samadhi follow by upacara /jhana in
> dhammapala com (citta and dhamma)while sukavipasaka are upacara as
> mention in patisambhida com-as a kayasakkhi which prove that they are
> samathayanika too but just upacara.
>
> This is all very interesting. As you have studied this alot it would
> be nice if you gave more references and quotes. I will try to study
> what you write on it.
> RobertK
> > mail.com/lavalife
>
>
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