--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Ong Teng Kee" <ongtk@...> wrote:

> dear Rob,
> You have misunderstood buddhaghosa because you didn't read this

sutta com.If he said sukavipasaka is a harder way to nibbana but
samathayanika with jhana as a ship(sampan) to cross the sea will be
easier,how can it be in the end of sasana everyone will try attain
nibbana in the harder way since our parami will be poorer,we need
even more jhana to be easier compare to those sariputta etc.It can
sure that sukavipasaka mean arahant without iddhi ,devine eyes when
we talk about end of sasana , they are emerge from first jhana,second
jhana though not from formless.The word kilamati has no comment in
the tika but maybe in anguttara old tika by dhammapala(missing)
__________

Dear Teng kee,
When Buddhaghosa says that sukkavipassaka is harder doesn't he mean
that it is a dry way - not moistened by the dew of the jhanas?
The Netti-pakarana (587)
"Tattha Bhagava tikkhindriyassa samatham upadassati, majjhindriyassa
Bhagava samathavipassanam upadissati, mudindriyassa Bhagava
vipassanam upadassati.
Herein the Blessed one teaches samatha to one of keen faculties;
The blessed one teaches samatha and insight to one of medium
faculties and the blessed one teaches insight [alone] to one of
blunt
faculties."

In this late stage of the sasana isn't almost everyone one of the
mudindriyasaa(blunt facultied)

I believe only the very wise ones with great accumulations could
master jhana and use it as the base for insight. (Being able to
attain access concentration or even one of the jhanas doesn't count
as mastery).

> Anyway i think at this moment sukavipasaka has two meanings in com

but vipasanayanika are not the same with both of them because
sudhavipasanayanika are momentary samadhi follow by upacara /jhana in
dhammapala com (citta and dhamma)while sukavipasaka are upacara as
mention in patisambhida com-as a kayasakkhi which prove that they are
samathayanika too but just upacara.

This is all very interesting. As you have studied this alot it would
be nice if you gave more references and quotes. I will try to study
what you write on it.
RobertK

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