----- Original Message -----
From: "rjkjp1" <rjkjp1@...>
To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 7:37 PM
Subject: [Pali] Re: choiceless awareness


> ---Dear Jou,

Hi Robert

> Comments below:
> In Pali@..., "Jou Smith" <josmith.1@...> wrote:
> > >
> > Hi
>
> > I missed your name this time. No indications in your email.
> __________
> I signed my name, "Robert" in the Mail.

I looked twice and didn't see it, oh well, maybe my eyesight is failing.

> My full name is Robert Kirkpatrick, sorry for any confusion.

no problem

> > Robert::> Thanks for the link and your comments. As you say we
> need to compare
> > > what anyone says with the Dhamma/Vinaya before concluding it is
> or is
> > > not in line with what the Buddha taught. I appreciate the importance
> of
> > > this and your stress on it.
> ________
> >
> >JOU: But you do not want to do it?! Instead you want to busy yourself
> with the
> > other way.
> How did you come to your view of the Dhamma? Was it by following the
> method
> > of interpretation the Buddha taught? <Snip>

It seems you wish to ignore this question/these questions. If so, I find
that does not work towards developing understanding thru communication, but
the opposite.

> ____________
> > > Sayadaw U Silananda's "The Four Foundations of Mindfulness: an
> > > exposition of the summary". He says:
> > > >
> > > > ... The object at the present moment can be anyone of this four.
> > > Sometimes the body, sometimes feelings, sometimes consciousness,
> > -------
> >Jou: Consciousness is not a good interpretation/translation of Citta,
this
> > obvious from experience, comparative analysis of teachings and
> > linguistically one sees the close link between Citta and the Pali word
to
> > think. If one translates Citta as consciousness then what of
> vi~n~naa.na?
>
> __________
> Robert: Yes Citta is a hard word to translate. I think only in the Dhamma
> is there real understanding of cittta

I disagree. This would seem to be a shallow judgement of other religions. I
am not saying that there is full understanding of citta in other teachings,
but I would not claim there is not until I had tested them. I think for
there to be complete samaadhi in other religions, they would have to
understand citta. I don't know if other religions have or do not have
complete samaadhi and I wouldn't want to assume either. Wisdom is said to be
the quality found in the Awakened One's teaching that distinguishes it from
other teachings, but according to the Awakened One's story of his search for
awakening he said his former unawake teachers (called "theravaada") also had
wisdom (M 26 : M i 164, also M 36 ; M 85 ; M 100). This other text (M 11 : M
i 66) indicates it is more specifically the teaching on clinging to a
doctrine of soul that is only found in the Awakened One's teaching:
"Though certain wanderers and priests claim to propound the full
understanding of all kinds of clinging. they describe the full understanding
of clinging to sensual pleasures, clinging to views, and clinging to rules
and observances without describing the full understanding of clinging to a
doctrine of soul. They therefore do not understand one instance."
This agrees with texts indicating that others outside his teaching had
developed and do develop the first two of the three super-knowledges (M 136
: M iii 210-4), but because they had not developed Right View they would
have taken (interpreted) their experience wrongly so they would have been
"wrong insight". This goes to show that there may be siila, samaadhi and
wisdom in others' teachings, but not the degree of wisdom as found in the
Buddha's teaching.

> and so any word we use for this
> from another language is bound to be approximate and misleading to
> some degree.

I don't think this is necessarily so. I don't blame tools for my lack of
understanding or self expression.

> When I read the statement from Ven. Silananada I
> automatically translate the main terms into Pali . What is harder of
> course is knowing citta as it appears directly at this moment: then no
> words are needed.

I think they are needed unless one is a Buddha.

> But first I agree with you that we have to discuss the
> meaning of the words . Vi~n~naa.na and Citta are synonyms.

So you say, but that does not fit with the comparative study method
mentioned before.

> ----------
> >
> > >Silananda: and sometimes dhamma objects. You have to take these
> objects as the
> > > come; you have no choice.
> >
> > We only have no choice if there is delusion. If we cannot see what we
> are
> > doing we cannot chose not to do it.
> ___________
>
> In the deepest sense is there really a 'we' that can choose?
> ____________

That depends on whose interpretation of the Dhamma you follow.

> > > That is why sometimes Vipassanaa
> > > meditation is called "choice-less awareness"
> >
> > Choice-less awareness is illogical and even though the goal of the
> Buddha's
> > teaching cannot be reached by logic, understanding is attained through
> > logic. In the Kalaama sutta it is indicated that logic is not to be the
> > final authority, but it is not said to be given up.
> >
> > Intention involves choice. Awareness invovles choice.
>
> ___________
> What are the pali terms for intention.

cetanaa

> In what way does awareness involve choice?

I can only have intention to do something when there is another thing to
intend not to do. I choose to intend to do one rather than the other.

> I think you bring up important ideas that should be discussed.

cool

----------------------------------------------------
Peace from Norman Joseph (Jou) Smith
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