----- Original Message -----
From: "Buddhayatana" <buddhayatana@...>
To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 7:37 PM
Subject: [Pali] about peaceful words


Dear Jou,

Me: Hi Gabriel

don't you find that your own way of expressing your preference for using
the Pali qualifier "bhikkhu" rather than "Ven." or "Venerable" could itself
appear as... distateful ?

Me: I see it surely could be classed by some as unpleasant to hear.

I do agree with your position of principle, but not about your unnecessary
brusqueness, to the point of rudeness.

Me: Here you are judging my behaviour, just as I have done with the
Venerable Monk. I could take the same track you have and echo your sentiment
of dissatisfaction or displeasure, I see that as continuing the cycle of
samsaara, but I do not have problems with people judging my behaviour as
pleasant or unpleasant, in fact I welcome it. It gives me an opportunity to
reflect on my behaviour and see something about it (or my
motivation/intention for doing it) that I might not have before.

You could simply have stated:

"Bhante, I believe that we should continue with the millenarian tradition
of using pali qualifiers - using words that are not blemished with their
own - possibly tainted - history. Accordingly, don't you think it would be
more proper for you to to sign as "bhikkhu (name)"?

Me: Of course I could have and would have, if I were you. But in fact I
don't believe we should use Paali words in a tradition or culture that does
not use Paali as a lingua franca. I believe in the interpretation of the
Buddha's teaching that goes 'teach the Process (of liberation - Dhamma) in
your own language'. More importantly, I do not call all pleasant speach as
peaceful (and all unpleasant speech as unpeaful), in line with the Buddha's
teaching on the six types of speech (MN 58 = PTS M i 392-6). There he says
there is speech that is:
true, beneficial and unpleasant
true, beneficial and pleasant
true, unbeneficial and unpleasant
true, unbenefical and pleasant
untrue, unbeneficial and pleasant
untrue, unbenefical and unpleasant
He says he practices the first two only and thereby sets the example for his
followers.
Not accepting unpleasant speech to see if it is true and beneficial is from
an attitude of not wanting to learn, from the space of being trapped by
sense desire (hedonism).

Peace from Aussie to Aussie.

Dr Gabriel Jîvasattha Bittar


>Dear Sir, I find you refering to yourself as venerable as distasteful, NB
>this is not saying that you are not venerable. As a bhikkhu I referred to
>myself as bhikkhu. I have not seen an example of the Buddha referring to
>himself as venerable.

----------------------------------------------------
Peace from Norman Joseph (Jou) Smith
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