Venerables and friends
Namo Buddha
At the time of Buddha and after many years, Sakya
niruttiyaa was the language of entire Saakya Bhumi
(Indian Sub continent including Sri Lanka). We have
authentic archiological evidences to prove this fact.
Many of the oldest ancient inscriptions in India and
Sri lanka are in Saakya Niruttiyaa, written in Prami
script. In pre Christian era there was no other
languge written. Saakya Niruttiya was not only the
spoken languge of majority, but also elit language
till Gupta period. Please go by inscription History of
India, not by oral History.
Till Gupta era Sanskrit literature was oral
literature.
The earlier Sanskrit was developed by Mahayana
Buddhist tradition.
"Sanskrit was a elit language" is an modern concept,
developed by Indian and Eropian elits to show their
racial superiority.
Buddha prefered to preach in Saakyaa niruttiyaa, not
because Saakya niruttiyaa was spoken languge of mass,
but due to highly developed nature.
He said that the teaching of enlightened is already
established in Saakyaa niruttiya. It is very difficult
to translate the words of Buddha in to any other
languages.
We can see this difficulty even today when we
translate the words of Buddha in to any other
languages.
The meaning changes according to the culture of
particular language.
When Dhamma became Dharma (it became religion, Varna
Dharma (Caste system)). Kamma became Karma. In Karma
the Atma (soul) takes new birth. [*Moderator: as in the teachings of Hinduism] This is used to
maintain caste system in India for long period. The
Kamma of Buddha is very different from the Kamma or
Karma of others. Without one enter in to the words and
meaning of Buddha with direct experience, it is
difficult to understand the deeper meanings of Lord
Buddha.
We may teach Dhamma with our understanding, but can
not teach Dhamma of Buddha. If any one wants to know
the Dhamma of Buddha one has to know the language of
Buddha.
Metta
sakya
bavatu sabba mangalam
--- Kumaara Bhikkhu <
venkumara@...> wrote: >
I agree, Paul. It's strange how such an idea could
> come to his mind, isn't it? In fact, I myself have
> preached in English, Mandarin and Hokkien (a Chinese
> dialect).
>
> I suppose the controversy of "sakaaya niruttiyaa"
> shall remain unsolved.
>
> metta,
> ven k
>
> At 08:49 AM 11-11-02, paulocuana wrote:
> >Dear Ven Kumaara,
> >I had sent this extract of Geiger's in hopes that
> this expert had
> >properly addressed the subject but the more I think
> about it the more
> >I think Geiger may be wrong. After all, even today
> there are many
> >languages(dialects?) spoken in the area of the
> modern state of Bihar,
> >how much more so in Buddha's time. It seems
> perfectly natural that
> >if the dhamma was to be spread in the area in which
> the Buddha lived
> >it would have to be taught in many different
> languages.
> >It seems reasonable to argue that Buddha was
> against teaching the
> >dhamma in the language of the elite, sanskrit, and
> for teaching in
> >various vernacular tongues so that the dhamma was
> available to all.
> >The statement by Geiger that, "Neither the two
> monks nor Buddha
> >himself could have thought of preaching in
> different dialects in
> >different cases" seems a bit silly when you think
> that by traveling a
> >few miles in any direction one would encounter a
> different language,
> >to say nothing of the different dialects spoken in
> the same town by
> >people of different social classes.
> > Best Wishes,
> > Paul
> >
> >--- In Pali@..., Paul O Cuana <paulocuana@...>
> wrote:
> >> From the introduction to "Paali Literature and
> >> Language by Wilhelm Geiger":
> >>
> >> "anujaanaami bhikkhave sakaaya niruttiyaa
> >> buddhavacana.m pariyaapu.nitu.m. Rys Davids and
> >> Oldenberg translate this passage by "I allow you,
> oh
> >> brethren, to learn the words of the Buddhas each
> in
> >> his own dialect." This interpretation however is
> not
> >> in harmony with that of Buddhaghosa, according to
> whom
> >> it has been translated by "I ordain the words of
> >> Buddha to be learnt in his own language (i.e. in
> >> Maagadhii, the language used by Buddha himself)."
>
> >> After repeated examinations of this passage I
> have
> >> come to the conclusion that we have to stick to
> the
> >> explanation given by Buddhaghosa. Neither the
> two
> >> monks nor Buddha himself could have thought of
> >> preaching in different dialects in different
> cases.
> >> Here the question is merely whether the words of
> >> Buddha might be translated into Sanskrit or not.
> This
> >> is however clearly forbidden by the Master, at
> first
> >> negatively and then positively by the injunction
> >> beginning with anujaanaami. The real meaning of
> this
> >> injunction is, as is also best in consonance with
> >> Indian spirit, that there can be no other form of
> the
> >> words of Buddha than in which the Master himself
> had
> >> preached. Thus even in the life-time of Buddha
> people
> >> were concerned about the way in which his
> teaching
> >> might be handed down as accurately as possible,
> both
> >> in form and in content. How much more must have
> been
> >> the anxiety of the disciples after his death!
> The
> >> external form was however Maagadhii, though
> according
> >> to tradition it is Paali."
> >>
> >> I've not included the footnotes.
> >> Paul O'Cuana
> >> --- Kumaara Bhikkhu <venkumara@...> wrote:
> >> > At 07:20 PM 17-10-02, Ong Teng Kee wrote:
> >> > >you can read in Taiping buddhist society daily
> from
> >> > 8.oo pm to 10.00
> >> >
> >> > Thank you for the information.
> >> >
> >> > >pm.sakayanirutiya is about which language
> should be
> >> > used to teach buddha
> >> > >teaching-your own language or sanskrit.I think
> you
> >> > should know where it is.
> >> >
> >> > I see now. You must be referring to sakaaya
> >> > niruttiyaa. If this could be found among the
> Chinese
> >> > scriptures, then we can be sure that there are
> at
> >> > least fragments of equivalence to the Maha- and
> >> > Cuu.lavagga of the Pali Vinaya Pi.taka.
> >> >
> >> > Incidentally, this matter came up in our class
> >> > earlier. Perhaps the story may interest the
> members
> >> > here.
> >> >
> >> > Two bhikkhus of brahman birth approached the
> Buddha
> >> > and said that all sorts of monks were ruining
> the
> >> > Buddha's words "sakaaya niruttiyaa". They then
> >> > offered to render the Buddha's words in
> metrical
> >> > verse. The Buddha rebuked for them for saying
> that
> >> > and rejected it. He further imposed a dukka.ta
> for
> >> > whoever or renders it so, and gave formal
> allowance
> >> > "to master" (pariyaapu.nitu.m) Buddha's words
> >> > "sakaaya niruttiyaa".
> >> >
> >> > Now here's the controversy:
> >> > As you can see I left "sakaaya niruttiyaa"
> >> > untranslated. Literally, it means "with own
> >> > language/dialect". Modern translators
> translates it
> >> > as "with *one's* own language/dialect",
> rendering
> >> > the passage to mean that the monks were ruining
> the
> >> > Buddha's words with *one's* own language, and
> the
> >> > Buddha allowed monks to master the Buddha's
> words
> >> > with *one's* own language.
> >> >
> >> > However, my teacher, basing on the commentarial
> >> > gloss, says that it means "with *their* own
> >> > language/dialect", rendering the passage to
> mean
> >> > that the monks were ruining the Buddha's words
> with
> >> > *their* own language, and the Buddha allowed
> monks
> >> > to master the Buddha's words with *their* own
> >> > language, which the commentary gloss as
> Magadhi,
> >> > which is believed to be what we now call Pali.
> >> >
> >> > Can anyone throw more light to this?
> >> >
> >> > peace
> >> >
> >> > Ven Kumâra
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
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=== message truncated ===
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