I agree, Paul. It's strange how such an idea could come to his mind, isn't it? In fact, I myself have preached in English, Mandarin and Hokkien (a Chinese dialect).
I suppose the controversy of "sakaaya niruttiyaa" shall remain unsolved.
metta,
ven k
At 08:49 AM 11-11-02, paulocuana wrote:
>Dear Ven Kumaara,
>I had sent this extract of Geiger's in hopes that this expert had
>properly addressed the subject but the more I think about it the more
>I think Geiger may be wrong. After all, even today there are many
>languages(dialects?) spoken in the area of the modern state of Bihar,
>how much more so in Buddha's time. It seems perfectly natural that
>if the dhamma was to be spread in the area in which the Buddha lived
>it would have to be taught in many different languages.
>It seems reasonable to argue that Buddha was against teaching the
>dhamma in the language of the elite, sanskrit, and for teaching in
>various vernacular tongues so that the dhamma was available to all.
>The statement by Geiger that, "Neither the two monks nor Buddha
>himself could have thought of preaching in different dialects in
>different cases" seems a bit silly when you think that by traveling a
>few miles in any direction one would encounter a different language,
>to say nothing of the different dialects spoken in the same town by
>people of different social classes.
> Best Wishes,
> Paul
>
>--- In Pali@..., Paul O Cuana <paulocuana@...> wrote:
>> From the introduction to "Paali Literature and
>> Language by Wilhelm Geiger":
>>
>> "anujaanaami bhikkhave sakaaya niruttiyaa
>> buddhavacana.m pariyaapu.nitu.m. Rys Davids and
>> Oldenberg translate this passage by "I allow you, oh
>> brethren, to learn the words of the Buddhas each in
>> his own dialect." This interpretation however is not
>> in harmony with that of Buddhaghosa, according to whom
>> it has been translated by "I ordain the words of
>> Buddha to be learnt in his own language (i.e. in
>> Maagadhii, the language used by Buddha himself)."
>> After repeated examinations of this passage I have
>> come to the conclusion that we have to stick to the
>> explanation given by Buddhaghosa. Neither the two
>> monks nor Buddha himself could have thought of
>> preaching in different dialects in different cases.
>> Here the question is merely whether the words of
>> Buddha might be translated into Sanskrit or not. This
>> is however clearly forbidden by the Master, at first
>> negatively and then positively by the injunction
>> beginning with anujaanaami. The real meaning of this
>> injunction is, as is also best in consonance with
>> Indian spirit, that there can be no other form of the
>> words of Buddha than in which the Master himself had
>> preached. Thus even in the life-time of Buddha people
>> were concerned about the way in which his teaching
>> might be handed down as accurately as possible, both
>> in form and in content. How much more must have been
>> the anxiety of the disciples after his death! The
>> external form was however Maagadhii, though according
>> to tradition it is Paali."
>>
>> I've not included the footnotes.
>> Paul O'Cuana
>> --- Kumaara Bhikkhu <venkumara@...> wrote:
>> > At 07:20 PM 17-10-02, Ong Teng Kee wrote:
>> > >you can read in Taiping buddhist society daily from
>> > 8.oo pm to 10.00
>> >
>> > Thank you for the information.
>> >
>> > >pm.sakayanirutiya is about which language should be
>> > used to teach buddha
>> > >teaching-your own language or sanskrit.I think you
>> > should know where it is.
>> >
>> > I see now. You must be referring to sakaaya
>> > niruttiyaa. If this could be found among the Chinese
>> > scriptures, then we can be sure that there are at
>> > least fragments of equivalence to the Maha- and
>> > Cuu.lavagga of the Pali Vinaya Pi.taka.
>> >
>> > Incidentally, this matter came up in our class
>> > earlier. Perhaps the story may interest the members
>> > here.
>> >
>> > Two bhikkhus of brahman birth approached the Buddha
>> > and said that all sorts of monks were ruining the
>> > Buddha's words "sakaaya niruttiyaa". They then
>> > offered to render the Buddha's words in metrical
>> > verse. The Buddha rebuked for them for saying that
>> > and rejected it. He further imposed a dukka.ta for
>> > whoever or renders it so, and gave formal allowance
>> > "to master" (pariyaapu.nitu.m) Buddha's words
>> > "sakaaya niruttiyaa".
>> >
>> > Now here's the controversy:
>> > As you can see I left "sakaaya niruttiyaa"
>> > untranslated. Literally, it means "with own
>> > language/dialect". Modern translators translates it
>> > as "with *one's* own language/dialect", rendering
>> > the passage to mean that the monks were ruining the
>> > Buddha's words with *one's* own language, and the
>> > Buddha allowed monks to master the Buddha's words
>> > with *one's* own language.
>> >
>> > However, my teacher, basing on the commentarial
>> > gloss, says that it means "with *their* own
>> > language/dialect", rendering the passage to mean
>> > that the monks were ruining the Buddha's words with
>> > *their* own language, and the Buddha allowed monks
>> > to master the Buddha's words with *their* own
>> > language, which the commentary gloss as Magadhi,
>> > which is believed to be what we now call Pali.
>> >
>> > Can anyone throw more light to this?
>> >
>> > peace
>> >
>> > Ven Kumâra
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
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