Derek,

It's all right to be meticulous about grammar at an early stage of learning Pali. But
generally in due course, it is "translation" that take priority over "transciption"
or "transliteration" so that we don't end up with "translationese" instead of
English. So while it is useful to know whether a word is optative or imperative,
etc., it is the sense that we ultimately want to carry into the English. The grammar
is secondary and idiomatic.

Sanskrit and Pali (Indian languages in general) tend to put their verbs at the end:
buddha.m sara.na.m gacchaami, "To the Buddha for Refuge I go" sounds all right, but
it is poetic licence, and we cannot consistently put the verb at the end of an
English sentence.

In my research paper written in 1989 (which I'm editing now) I discovered some
interesting and important problems that the Chinese faced when they first translated
the sutras into Chinese. Chinese being a tonal and monosyllabic, while English is
atonal and agglutinative. But this is the deep end of the problem. English, though
belonging to the same language family as Pali, are still very distant cousins.

Hope this helps to give a broader perspective in translation of Pali into English.

P.


"Äìèòðèé Èâàõíåíêî (Dimitry Ivakhnenko)" wrote:

> Derek and Piya,
>
> DC> Thank you for your help with this one. Yes, I'm glad to have internet
> DC> friends who are also interested in Pali. I wish I'd started when I
> DC> was still at university.
>
> I notice I'm learning fast thanks to our discussion.
> And nothing to regret because Pali is yet to be introduced in Ukrainian
> universities ;)
>
> DC> Some questions for you:
> DC> (1) PTS page number. Isn't it AN iv.128 (not i.128)?
>
> Surely AN iv.128. Thanks for noticing.
>
> DC> (2) Aarocayaami and pa.tivedayaami. These are passives, surely, not
> DC> imperatives?
>
> As far as I know, imperatives. Please see page 124 of Charles
> Duroiselle grammar.
> The passives would be different, Aarociiyaami and pa.tivediiyaami.
>
> DC> (3) Am I right that yathaa is used to indicate indirect speech here?
> DC> I am informed "yathaa ..." = I am informed "that ..."?
>
> I don't think so. Yathaa doesn't necessarily indicate indirect speech.
>
> DC> (4) The construction ya.m + dative subject + optative verb indicates
> DC> a hypothetical case?
>
> Generally yes.
>
> DC> (5) Tatonidaana.m = tato (ablative) + nidaana.m? "On account of this
> DC> (tato), that it (so) is the cause (nidaana.m) of ..."?
>
> Rhys-Davids translates Tatonidaana.m = through this, literally 'from
> this foundation'. It seems 'so' here means 'he'.
>
> DC> (6) na tveva = na tu eva -- could we translate as "[and] moreover,
> DC> surely ..."?
>
> Mr. Rhys Davids suggests 'but not', and I agree with him here. There's
> apparently negative particle, similar to n'eva = na + eva.
>
> DC> I'll go right on to the next paragraph.
>
> I must say that your bravery, persistence and energy are amazing.
> Paragraphs, suttas, vaggas, nikayas ...
>
> DC> The construction "ya.m so .... ta.m tassa" is what puzzles me.
>
> Regular use of ya.m as correlative pronoun, correlative construction.
> See PED. However I wonder at the exact meaning of tassa here, does it
> express destination?
>
> Here's my attempt:
>
> 4. "Yañca kho so, bhikkhave, dussiilo paapadhammo
> asucisa"nkassarasamaacaaro ... pe ... kasambujaato khattiyakañña.m
> vaa braahma.makañña.m vaa gahapatikañña.m va mudutalunahatthapaada.m
> aali"ngetvaa upanisiidati vaa upanipajjati vaa, tañhi tassa,
> bhikkhave, hoti diigharatta.m ahitaaya dukkhaaya kaayassa bhedaa
> para.m mara.naa apaaya.m duggati.m vinipaata.m niraya.m upapajjati.
>
> 4. And monks, for such a person, immoral, wicked, unclean and suspect in
> conduct, secretive in deeds, not a contemplative though claiming to be one,
> not leading the holy life though claiming to do so, inwardly rotten,
> oozing with desire, filthy by nature, who having embraced a
> khattiya or brahmin or householder maiden of soft tender hands and
> feet, sits close or lies on top of her, for him, monks, there is a
> long-term harm and suffering, and on the break-up of the body
> after death, he is reborn in a place of woe, a realm of misery,
> a state of punishment, a purgatory.
>
> Or maybe another alternative?
>
> '... of her, he, monks, is destined for long-term ...'
>
> Dimitry
>
>
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