--- In Nostratica@yahoogroups.com, "H.M. Hubey" <hubeyh@...> wrote:

>
>
> Richard Wordingham wrote:
>
> > -
> >
> > One of the advantages of the Austronesian languages for studying
> > sound changes is that it is such a large group. A change t > k

shows

> > up in comparison with other languages, and if you had, say c~t~k
> > collapsing to t~k~k, it should show up by comparison with a large
> > number of unaffected languages. (I know, I ought to write t~k,

but I

> > let you call your bags - or were they sequences? - sets.)
> >
> > What are your accepted p>k>t and p>t>k examples?
>
>
> The famous ones which occur accross Semitic, Turkic and IE are tVr,

and

> kVr having to
> do with "rotation, turning, etc". And there is also evidence of it

in

> form pVr. I cannot tell
> if it was p>t>k or p>k>t.

That's more like a single word. What examples do you have as a
_regular_ _unconditioned_ sound change? (Interchange of tl and kl is
well known, but that is a _conditioned_ change.)

Looking at Torsten's list of <plosive>Vr roots at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nostratica/message/90 , I can't help
thinking that there's some sort of sound symbolism going on here. In
English we've got 'whir' and 'whirl', and in PIE there's a root wer-
with several extensions, all related to turning. Perhaps it's
universal onamatopeia. w- > gw- is fairly common (Welsh, Old French
and American Spanish leap to mind), so if such onomatopoeic words
keep being generated, over the millenia all the various combinations
could be generated without violating SCR. These words are found well
beyond Nostratic.

> > > > > Turkic which stretches from the Pacific to the Adriatic.
> >
> > > > Reaching the Adriatic is fairly recent.
> >
> > > Large numbers of them must have existed for a long period of

time

> > > in order to have spread
> > > out and not disappeared. Supernova-ing is a rare event. In any
> > case
> > > they were in the Asian region for a long time.
> >
> > The impact of 'supernovas' is quite wide, and there have been

quite a

> > few in historical times:
> >
> > Big ones, in historical order:
> > Latin, Arabic, Spanish, English
>
> Latin spread over IE areas in Europe. And it only "converted"

southwest

> Europe.

It mopped up non-IE pockets in Tuscany, Spain and France.

> Arabic
> spread over areas where related languages were spoken. In areas in

which

> it was not
> true, it fizzled out (Iran, Anatolia, Spain).

> Spanish had a huge
> advantage e.g. firearms and
> modern technology over a stone age population. Ditto for English.

Custer was outgunned! However, I think technological advantage may
be the name of the game.

>
> >
> >
> > Moderate ones:
> > Aramaic, Turkish, Russian
>
> Turkic was probably also like Arabic and spread over an area in

which there

> were related languages. Only in Anatolia did it encounter special
> circumstances.
> In other areas it also mostly disappeared.

It made significant inroads into Fars as well.

> Russian spread over Slavic
> lands.

?
I was thinking of the Eastward expansion, which you've included in
the '1700 year' Slavic expansion.

> > It's not surprising if people use this model for Afro-Asian, Indo-
> > European (2 waves - agricultural and steppe, and should we count

an

> > Indian expansion as well?), Austro-Asiatic and a prehistoric Tai
> > expansion.
>
> Maybe different cities got bigger and took control over wider

regions

> their languages
> became lingua franca and was learned by others in the neighborhood

which

> enriched the
> syntax and morphology of the neighboring languages. Over time, they
> probably picked up
> complex syntax and morphologies and some irregularity would be

expected.

The above weren't associated with urban civilisations.

> IE model
> does not work for others. It probably does not work for IE either

except

> by ignoring
> evidence to the contrary. I recently read a book on Semitic (which

I

> could not find
> otherwise I would have given a reference) in which the author(s)

say the

> same thing.
> I think there was something like Sanches, Badillo or something.

I look forward to your coming across it and telling us more about it.