Native Europeans; was: Re: Gerry!

--- In Nostratica@yahoogroups.com, "John <jdcroft@...>"
<jdcroft@...> wrote:

> Torsten wrote
>
> > Inasmuch as 'Celtic ancestry' makes sense genetically. The Celts
> > were conquerors themselves and came from elsewhere. I suggested

the

> > Jutes were once Celtic (or similar) speaking, Tacitus says the
> > Aestii on the coast of the Baltic spoke a language similar to that
> > of Britain, and a logical conclusion of that would seem to be that
> > the area between West Jutland and the Rhineland, where both banks
> > show the same archaeology just before Caesar mentions the Germani
> > for the first time in history, was Celtic-speaking too. But some
> > have suggested a Nordwestblock language in that area.
>
> Torsten, this is news to me. I know that the Nordwestblock has

been

> confirmed by place name analysis as strtching down as far as Calais
> and Boulogne in France, and that it has been suggested that these
> people became Celticised as the Belgae (Irish Fir Bolg), who

invaded

> South East England as the Atrebates, just prior to the rise of

Rome.

> I was unaware that Caesar calls the Germani as Celti.

I don't think I said that. And I would dispute it.

>In fact I
> believed he divided "Gaul" into four areas. The Aquitani -
> Celticised Basques; Belage (already discussed); Gaul - Celts

proper;

> and Germania - Ethnic Germans, actively displacing Celts from the
> Rhineland.

Didn't he say "partes tres"? And he was the first to mention Germani.
Earlier writers call the inhabitants of these areas Celts.

>
> > Impressionistically, I have a hard time characterizing the Dutch.
> > They seem like no other people in Europe, like some aboriginal I-
> > don't-know-what (this is obviously not the case for most of the
> > people, but once I've recognized elements from the rest of

Europe,

> > there remains a kernel of fascinating differentness). I can

believe

> > the Flemish are a-kind-of-German or a-kind-of-French, but not the
> > Dutch.
> >
> > As for the Saxons, the Thuringian Chronicle says they came from

the

> > east (Sacae) and by their conquest of the Baltic Coast would have
> > separated the two "Odin colonies" in Thuringia and Denmark. They
> > would have changed their language at that time to the lingua

franca

> > of the area, namely Germanic. As for their ethnic (not

linguistic)

> > composition at the time of Hengist and Horsa, God only knows.
> > Someone once mentioned in Cybalist that the Afghans you see on TV
> > look like something you might see on the street of any Western
> > European or American city. To me they look like our politicians.
>

> Recent Genetic studies of England, Wales, Friesland and Scandinavia
> suggest an interesting pattern. The Y Chromosome shows no

difference

> between the Friesian and English populations, but differences with
> every one else. The MtDNA shows that there is no difference

between

> English and Welsh and differences with everyone else.
>
> From this we can assume that bands of Friesan Saxons and Angles

came

> to Ebgland, enslaved the British (Welsh) men and took the Welsh

women

> as their wives, thus "creating" the English. Regarding the Saxons

in

> Thuringia, this is recorded by Procopius as a movement back into
> Germany from Britain in the years from 500-570 BCE. The attack on
> these Saxons by the developing Frankish Kingdom pushed them to the
> East.
>
> > Personally, when I travel in England I see people that look like
> > back home and people that look very different. Usually the natives
> > in Britain describes those people as "Celtic-looking" (by some
> > strange coincidence it seemed the casters in the "Lord of the

Ring"

> > movie selected exclusively those types for the inhabitants of the
> > shire).
>
> Torsten "Celtic Looking" seems to be racial stereotyping my friend.

I know it is, my friend. People sometimes answer your questions that
way. And my impression is it must somehow mean something to them,
since they are still fighting each other after 1500 years.

> As someone who is 7/8ths Celtic myself, I have been called

everything

> from Jewish, Maltese, Italian, French, Greek and even Arab.

In the USA, people usually introduced me as "my friend from Holland".

>As I
> keep saying, the differences within "the group" in Human population
> terms are always greater than the differences between Groups.

Of course.

> Earlier generations of Physical Anthropologists claimed there was a
> difference between Mediterranean (i.e. Latins/Romance), Aplines
> (Celts, South Slaves, Czechs etc) and Nordics (Germans, Balts), but
> this theory has been rejected by modern anthropologists on the
>basis
> of the genetic studies mentioned already.
>
> > And BTW, one shouldn't forget that the Angles and Saxons and

Jutes

> > were themselves on the run from Attila and his Huns. A new life

in

> > Britain beckoned, once they got rid of those pesky natives.
>
> That took longer than people think. Arthur held them up for nearly
> two generations after the Battle of Badon and before the Germanic
> revolt of 570.
>
> > As to why the Jutes are dumped from the standard invasin story,

the

> > reasoning is that the present Jutes, being Danes, must be North
> > Germanic speaking, and there's no trace of North Germanic in te
> > Hengist and Horsa invasion.
>
> Yes there are. In fact Kentish and the Isle of Wight (the areas of
> Jutish) settlement show destinctive Scandinavian features (as
> separate from the North Germanic and Friesan decorations elsewhere.

Linguistically speaking, Scandinavian = North Germanic. I was talking
linguistics, not archaeology.

>
> > Therefore either Danes have usurped the old land of the Jutes and
> > fraudulently taken their name, or the Jutes stayed at home. But as
> > I've tried to show on Cybalist, the Jutes might be counted as
> > speaking something in between the two language groups.
>
> Interesting. Considering the Danes in the Tale of Boewulf are said
> to have been living in South Western Sweden, I would say that you

are

> farly correct with your first guess Torsten. Given the

predominance

> of Saxons elsewhere, it would seem that West Germanic came to be

the

> lingua-franca along the North Sea Coast from about the 300's (on

the

> Continent) to the 500s.

Down to Boulogne.
Danish immigrants are noted for switching language fast in English-
speaking countries. Note that the Viking chief Hrolf changed his name
to Rollo, a West Germanic hypochoristic, when he became Duke of
Normandy

>

Torsten