Yes, yes Piotr. Here I am. Sorry but geography left the US
curriculum many years ago. If I remember correctly, it was Harvard's
President Conant who abolished it.

Since you and Richard etc. like playing games, here is my original
post:

He said:

> It is not true to say that Welsh is
> spoken in the south of England and
> English is spoken in the north.

To which I replied:
You're probably correct although it wouldn't have been my saying it;
rather it was said by Alekseev. In general terms though, where in
England is Welsh spoken?

Now I wish to explain that in no way do I wish to place the blame on
Alekseev for being a bit amiss in his geography (it could also be
that I misheard). Anyhow, thanks to everyone for setting the
information on a correct tone. Yes, England is part of Great Britain
but I had no idea that the United Kingdom was a state and likely
given the same hierarchial position as is Great Britain. Is there
any difference between the two (other than the former is a Kingdom
which only applies to England). Is it up to the individual
Englishman/woman to select which one he/she prefers? If so, then
please change the above to read: "where in the United Kingdom is
Welsh spoken. Yet perhaps the Welsh don't like the idea of Kingdom
and prefer that I say "where in Great Britain is Welsh spoken. Oh,
well, I'll never get it correct, no matter how hard I try.

Gerry









--- In Nostratica@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski
<piotr.gasiorowski@...> wrote:

> Do they still teach the geography of Great Britain in America ...

sorry, in the US? If not, I apologise for having to say something
that is obvious to some folks and a matter of exotic "nuances" to
others:

>
> England, Wales and Scotland are parts of Great Britain. they are

also parts of the same state (the United Kingdom), but:

>
> 1. Wales and England are separate countries.
> 2. Scotland and England are separate countries.
> 3. Wales and Scotland are separate countries.
>
> People in Wales and Scotland on the whole dislike being

called "English" and they dislike it when their respective countries
are treated by ignorant outsiders as parts of England, as if they had
no historical and cultural identity of their own. If a remark to that
effect is made by an academic (say, Alexeev), it's ignorant
nevertheless. An educated person should have known better.

>
> Welsh is a (Brythonic) Celtic language still spoken in some parts

of Wales. As with any other language, there may be small Welsh-
speaking communities outside Wales, but Welsh is associated
_primarily_ with Wales and Wales alone, and the fact that it
continues to be used there as a living language is important from the
point of view of the Welsh people. For most inhabitants of Wales,
English (Welsh English, to be precise) is the first language. That
doesn't make Wales part of England, just like Australia, Canada or
the US are not parts of England, though "English" is the
traditionally fixed name of the dominant language spoken there.

>
> To sum up:
>
> The statement 'Welsh is spoken in (some parts of) Wales' is true,

and this is what Alexeev should have said or written. It remains true
even though English is _also_ spoken in Wales.

>
> The isolated statement 'Welsh is spoken in England' is _false_ even

if there are some Welsh speakers scattered here and there in England.
It would be like saying that 'Finnish is spoken in the US'. A
sentence like 'Welsh is spoken in Great Britain' or 'Welsh is spoken
in the Solar System', while technically true, is misleading because
it fails to make explicit the primary association of Welsh with the
territory of Wales.

>
> Piotr
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <richard.wordingham@...>
> To: <nostratica@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 10:23 PM
> Subject: [Nostratica] Literal Truth
>
>
> > The statement, 'Beavers build dams.' is true. Its passive, 'Dams

are built by beavers.', is false, for people also build dams. Th
problem lies in implicit quantification.

> >
> > Similarly, the isolated statement, 'Welsh is spoken in the South

of England and English in the North.' is false, for it will be
understood as meaning that the language of the South is Welsh while
the language of the North is English.