The debate continues between Alexander and I:

>>I estimate that Dravidian is seperated from Altaic and IndoEuropean by
>>about 7000 years. Dravidian and AfroAsiatic
>>are seperated by 10,000 years. The least amount of pleading
>>would involve a comparison between IndoEuropean and Altaic,
>>a seperation of only 5000 years.
>
>I wonder what a technique do you use to obtain these figures?
>Is it a formula, or an algorithm, or just a complex expert estimation?
>Please share it, it's really interesting.

Well, even if we put aside the numbers, Altaic is certainly closer
to IE than to Dravidian or to AA. This requires linguistic knowledge
of some kind and cannot be replaced with "algorithms" or "formulae".
Linguistics, like sociology or psychology, is too "human" and
unpredictable to be calculated at. The dates I arrive at, therefore,
are simply estimations based on how I understand the spread of
Nostratic and the internal relationships of the various Nostratic
language groups.

My understanding of Nostratic is brought about by combining the
likeliest current theories I have come across together to form
a larger theoretical picture, a la Occam's Razor. By studying a
little, we will notice clearly that it is more generally accepted
that IE and Altaic are more closely related to each other than
IE is to AA. For example, it's easier to see the similarities
between IE and Altaic pronouns much easier than between IE and AA.

>However I would be surprised if there were many ManchuTungusic
>sheep-words there. Practically all the existing now languages of
>this group [...] are spoken by folks who live in taiga, practice
>reindeer-breeding, and normally never see a sheep during the whole
>life (before XIX cent.). Why should they keep a word, if there is
>no object to designate?

True enough, although it looks here as though one is using a lack
of evidence as a proof.

>>In fact, afaik, I don't recall Proto-Altaic nomads doing any
>>farming.
>[A]
>I think PROTO-Altaic people were not nomads.

I don't think I'm following what you're saying. What were they
before they were pastoral nomads and where in the world do you
place these people geographically? Are you saying that they were
once Central Asian farmers but had lost their way of life much
like refugees from the lost continent of Mu? :P

>>Where did they get the lambs?
>
>[...] Yes, you are right - Altaic people could get lambs only there, where
>sheep was domesticated and where all the Nostratic
>folks origin from - at the Near East. [...]
>In the 3rd millennium BC in a culture on the Western edge of the >Chinese
>civilization [...] sheep and cattle appeared! There were
>no wild progenitors of these animals there.

Then you must accept that these terms are loanwords from another
language.

>Whom could be those people who brought lambs ultimately from the
>Near East to China?
>I can't find any serious answer but ALTAIC-speaking ones.

Really? That's not a serious enough answer for me since you're
forgetting about all the north Eurasian languages that Altaic is
closely related to. (??!)

As far as I am concerned, this _is_ a loanword, and it comes from
some southern language that Altaic or later languages were in
contact with in the past.

If we are to accept Altaic *kur'i, why couldn't it come indirectly
from Dravidian via intermediate languages? Something like the
following could have happened somewhere between 5000 and 3000 BCE:

Dravidian *kuri > LanguageX *kuri > Altaic *kur'i

Hmm. Gee, that's getting me titulated. What language could it be?
Burushaski? Does anybody have a Burushaski dictionary?

Anyways, just some more thoughts to ponder.


- love gLeN


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx