----- Original Message -----
From: "jdcroft" <jdcroft@...>
To: <nostratic@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 10:49 AM
Subject: [nostratic] Re: Arrowheads and microliths - was: Problems with
Bomhard


[Alexander]
> > I read
> > that a part of Swiderian people moved from Poland to SouthEast (6
> > sites with Swiderian-type inventory in Crimea).
[John]
> Do they give dates for this movement? It would be important to know
> this as it would give us a chance to see trends
>
> Swiderian ===> Takhunian
>
> OR
>
> Takhunian ===> Crimea

[A]
We should be careful with dates given in Russian literature. People are
rather conservative here and often uncalibrated dates are pointed, sometimes
without comments.

In the book by Nikolaeva and Safronov the Swiderian culture is dated as 8900
BC - 7900 BC and the Takhunian one as 7170 BC - 5800 BC.
When speaking about Swiderian-type sites in the Crimea they refer to the
book "Mesolit SSSR". There is no dates for these sites (Suren' 2) in that
book, however is written that (sorry for my poor translation):
"The existence of a site like Suren' 2 in the Crimea is estimated as
spreading cultural influences from the side of the Swiderian culture from
more Northern regions of East Europe.The possibility of the direct migration
of a group of Swiderian population in the Crimea is not excluded."

I must say that the presence of Swiderians in the Crimea was just an
episode. The sites of the Crimean Mountain culture are much more numerous
and typical.

[A]
> > It has been
> > demonstrated that Shan-Koba type layers are older than Murzak-Koba
> > ones. Kukrek culture layers also stratigraphically lower then layers
> > of Murzak-Koba.
[J]
> Ah! I wonder whether these are the Swidderian derived cultures. Do
> you have dates for them. I have a 9,100-8,000 BCE date for calibrated
> Murzak Koba.

[A]
When speaking about Ukraine the authors of "Mesolit SSSR" ,1989 (this
chapter was written by D.Telegin) divide all the Mesolithic cultures of this
region into 2 large groups:
1) Southern (steppe) region of "microlithic type"
2) Northern (forest-steppe) region of "micro-macrolithic type"

The 1st group includes
- the Crimean Mountain culture with Shan-Koba and a later Murzak-Koba stage
(uncalibrated (?) dates for Laspi of the M-K stage are given - variations
from 6100-7100 BC in older layers to 5500 in younger layers)
- the Greben'ki culture at Lower Dniester (no dates, but it's written that
it is Late Mesolithic)
- the Kukrek culture in wide area from Dniester to Don including the Crimea
with several local types - this culture has no analogies (the dates for the
Kukrek site in the Crimea from 7650 to 5350 BC, and for Igren' 8 at Lower
Dnieper from 7300 to 5000 BC)

The 2nd group includes
- the Nobel variant of the Swiderian culture in the Volyn' and Poles'e
regions (no dates)
- the Dnieper-Pripyt' Mesolithic culture (no dates)
- the Donets Late Mesolithic culture (no dates, sorry)

[J]
> Fascinating. Following on what you seem to be suggesting is that
> domestication in these cases came via the Caucasus and not via the
> Balkans. Is this what the evidence is suggesting.

[A]
Yes, the oldest farmers of the Pontic steppes seem to come only with cattle
and pigs via the Caucasus (I read that first domesticated cattle and pigs
were found in older layers of Cayonu in East Turkey) and only later imported
sheep and goats from Balkan cultures which had sheep and goats as well as
own pigs and cattle.

[J]
> Given the absence
> of ovicaprids, it makes me wonder about cognates for cattle and
> pigs, versus sheep and goats between PIE and Kartvellian. Of course
> this is all post 8,500 BCE surely.

[A]
I haven't seen systematical investigations.
The only thing I can remember is
IE *porko 'pig' - Georgian bur(w)ak 'grown up piglet'


Alexander