Dear Miguel and Nostraticists:

----- Original Message -----
From: "Miguel Carrasquer Vidal" <mcv@...>
To: <nostratic@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 08, 2001 10:20 AM
Subject: Re: [nostratic] quel nostratique £¿


> On Sat, 7 Apr 2001 12:47:59 +0200, "Guillaume JACQUES" <xiang@...>
> wrote:
>
> >Les trois laryngales correspondent a k en ouralique dans la couche la plus profonde (la seule qui soit susceptible de ne pas etre empruntee). Ca pourrait aller avec l'idee de Miguel que les laryngales remontent a *k dans certaines conditions (j'avoue d'ailleurs ne pas avoir completement bien compris ton systeme, Miguel).
>

[MCV]
> Alors:
>
> One of the "typological" abnormalities found in reconstructed PIE
> phonotactics is the near absence in word-final position of the
> unmarked stops *-p, *-t, *-k.

[PR]
While they are statistically underrepresented, there is absolutely no reason to doubt they existed in final positions.

E.g. IE *(s)na:p-, 'swim', corresponds to Egyptian n(j)bj, 'swim'.

[MCV]
The only clear example is verbal
> 3rd.sg. *-(e-)t, but that one may easily be analogical after present
> tense *-ti.

[PR]
Quite the contrary. The earliest ending is *-t; -i is a suffix of progression.

[MCV]
That a final -/k/ can easily lead to -/x/ needs no
> further comment, and the corpus of IE cases where *k alternates with
> *H (mainly *h2), as given by Martinet and others, can at least in part
> be re-interpreted as evidence for a development **-k > *-h2

[PR]
In order for that to be seriously considered, it would be necessary to show that no related language had a cognate in *H.

[MCV]
(which is
> not to say that there are no cases of "hardening" of laryngeals,
> **h1/2/3 > *k: we certainly have to take that possibility into account
> as well).

[PR]
I see no examples that would make us take this proposal seriously.

[MCV]
On the basis of Hitt. ins.sg. -et vs. *-eh1 elsewhere

[PR]
This is a simple confusion between the two sets of conjugational endings.

[MCV]
(and
> other cases, like *met- ~ *meh1- "to measure"), I concluded that *-t
> could have developed into *-h1 (though not until the "post-Anatolian"
> stage).

[PCR]
No need to explain the variation with such acrobatics when we have Egyptian mj, 'like', and m(j)ty, 'precise', to show us both roots in another branch of Nostratic.

[MCV]
For *-p (/p/ of course being the most marked voiceless stop)
> I have no evidence one way or another. *If* there were cases of final
> **-p at all, and *if* they too developed into laryngeals (but why
> should they?), then the only possibility would be the labialized
> laryngeal *-h3.

[PCR]
You are right. There is absolutely no evidence Why contest the straightforward assumption that IE 'laryngeals' developed (solely) from Nostratic [h, ?, H, ¿]?

[MCV]
In the course of my investigations on the internal
> reconstruction of pre-PIE morphology, I stumbled on further
> alternations that might be explained through the transformation of
> final voiceless stops, in particular the plural variants in -es(w)
> (Armenian -k`!) and -i- (from *-a:tu ~ *-ati, cf. also the numeral
> *trey- < *tiláti > *TalaT-), and the duals in *-eh3 ~ *-h1 (from
> *-a:ku ~ *-aki). To list my hypothesized soundlaws concerning final
> voiceless stops in tabular form, we have:
>
> *-pi > *-p^ > ?
> *-pa > *-p > ? (*h3?)
> *-pu > *-pw > *-kw > *-h3
>
> *-ti > *-t^ > *-y
> *-ta > *-t > Anat. *-t, non-Anat. *-h1
> *-tu > *-tw > *-sw > *-s
>
> *-ki > *-k^ > *-h1
> *-ka > *-k > *-h2
> *-ku > *-kw > *-h3

[PCR]
A table is only as good as the legs on which it stands. I am afraid this table has none.

[MCV]
> I have only considered my theory for the case of grammatical endings.
> In so far as "roots" could function as independent words, a root like
> *dheh1- might derive from **dheki or **dheta, besides **dhehV or
> **dhe?V, with "original" laryngeals (assuming **h and **? both gave
> *h1).

[PR]
Unless, of course, the 'laryngeals' simply lengthened and preserved the Nostratic vowel-quality when short vowels were reduced to the *e/*o-Ablaut.


Pat

PATRICK C. RYAN | PROTO-LANGUAGE@... (501) 227-9947 * 9115 W. 34th St. Little Rock, AR 72204-4441 USA WEBPAGES: PROTO-LANGUAGE: http://www.geocities.com/proto-language/ and PROTO-RELIGION: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/2803/proto-religion/indexR.html "Veit ec at ec hecc, vindgá meiði a netr allar nío, geiri vndaþr . . . a þeim meiþi, er mangi veit, hvers hann af rótom renn." (Hávamál 138)